Advanced guide - Working with pre-pregs


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mawgan
mawgan
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I am new here and have had a quick look through the forums and on the easy composites website/videos and I have yet to see any real advanced techniques shown (please correct me if I'm wrong and there is in fact advanced tutorials somewhere that state the techniques that I am referring to).

I have personally had over 10 years experience working with all aspects of advanced composites and the family run company that I own has been in the business for over 30 years. We have worked mostly in marine but have covered all aspects along the way from F1 through to aerospace.

I thought that I would list just a few things here and people can maybe carry this on and extend any knowledge/tips they may have learnt along the way.

To start with, no matter what composite project you are working on, it is all in the preparation, it is the most important thing. I.e, cutting materials correctly and all consumables ready to go before you even think about getting started. Working cleanly is also very important and something you learn working professionally within the industry. I will post some of my top tips of preparation and working cleanly later on this thread.

For now a couple of advanced pre-preg tips:

Spike rollers - I have not seen these listed anywhere on this forum or the main site, if you do not know what I refer to, it is basically a roller with spikes sticking out. It is important to spike roller each layer of pre-preg that you put down in the stack as this creates small holes within the otherwise solid resin structure for any air pockets to escape during debulking.

Debulking - As a general rule of thumb you should always debunk every 2 layers, along with the spike roller this gets rid of air pockets trapped in the stack and helps 'set' the pre-preg in place as you go.

Breather tows - A breather toe is simple a short tow of fibreglass placed around the edge of the laminate (in the area to be trimmed), you should place one tow roughly every 250-500mm for large panels/mouldings and smaller distances apply for smaller jobs. This is more important with infusion and Sprint system pre-pregs as it enables the air to escape more easily between layers but also applies to pre-preg as well if you want to do a professional job.

Pre-preg curing - I have had a quick look through the easy composites pre-preg offering and was surprised to find fairly basic information regarding the resin systems used and the cure process. Not anywhere mentioned is the recommended ramp rate for cure which is extremely important. As a general rule of thumb anywhere from 0.3C to 2C per minute is acceptable but this really depends on the application and should be specified by the manufacturer. Ramp rates allow the resin to flow correctly eliminating pin holes and voids and it allows the cured resins tg1 to stay ahead of the 'cure'.

Dwell times - A dwell is a temperature hold for a set period of time in order for the stack and mould to catch up with the rest of the cure, this all depends on the oven and should be analysed using oven test before curing any pre-preg. Once you have learnt your oven you can apply this to all future cures and can set an appropriate dwell time.

That concludes just a few things that I have noticed were never mentioned thus far. I am working on a very detailed pre-preg guide which will include many tips and goes into extreme detail in order to achieve results seen in the most advanced racing yachts/f1/aerospace applications. Please let me know if you are interested in this.

Please feel free to add any other advanced suggestions on working with pre-pregs and I will post more up when I have time.

Thanks and I hope this helps anyone interested.
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morepower
morepower
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carboncactus (20/08/2013)
Breather tows are not necessary with VTF, and probably not with the easypreg surface layer, as this surfacing system actually has black glass threaded into it. Any other material, and I always use them:


Me and Wozza will agree to disagree on this one though: I do believe prepreg is more advanced than resin infusion. Mainly because the resins in prepreg are more advanced in their nature. The fact that they cure at a higher Tg and are therefore more viscous, means the curing cycle is that much further ahead and mechanical properties are better. Going further in terms of resin performance, there's a high temp structural epoxy prepreg that Im gonna sample soon which has a Tg of 320C (w00t) For it to have those characteristics means the resin in the prepreg is so viscous, its actually in a B stage form. It cant even be handled by hand, it has to be pressed. On the other end of the scale, resin infusion in its nature uses watery, much weaker resins. To get equally performing parts, you have to use more material with infusion, making it heavier. That along with the fact that you can choose any carbon cloth to make your part. With prepreg, the standard modulus for fabrics used are much higher. I do agree that you can probably control the resin ratio used (apart from what lands in the catch pot and what is left in the feed pot, but with prepreg if you want to lower your resin content, you can use a peel ply. You wouldn't want to lower it anymore than that though.

An interesting trial was made by Gurit. They made some blades by infusion and prepreg. Conclusion: prepreg blades outperformed infused blades in mechanical properties and production value (20% more blades produced in the same amount of time). Infused blades cost less in materials, although prepreg cost less in labour.

Not to diss infusion though. I think its got its place (bonnets, boat hulls etc). Just because I don't do it day to day doesn't mean I wouldn't chose it for a particular job if it called for it.
.



What he said...

Lets face it F1 chassis are not infused and Pr-preg is the material of choice for the highest spec parts.. I wouldn't think I could get my seat/fuel tank down to less than 3Kg and be structural any other way....
Edited 12 Years Ago by morepower
wozza
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morepower (20/08/2013)
carboncactus (20/08/2013)
Breather tows are not necessary with VTF, and probably not with the easypreg surface layer, as this surfacing system actually has black glass threaded into it. Any other material, and I always use them:


Me and Wozza will agree to disagree on this one though: I do believe prepreg is more advanced than resin infusion. Mainly because the resins in prepreg are more advanced in their nature. The fact that they cure at a higher Tg and are therefore more viscous, means the curing cycle is that much further ahead and mechanical properties are better. Going further in terms of resin performance, there's a high temp structural epoxy prepreg that Im gonna sample soon which has a Tg of 320C (w00t) For it to have those characteristics means the resin in the prepreg is so viscous, its actually in a B stage form. It cant even be handled by hand, it has to be pressed. On the other end of the scale, resin infusion in its nature uses watery, much weaker resins. To get equally performing parts, you have to use more material with infusion, making it heavier. That along with the fact that you can choose any carbon cloth to make your part. With prepreg, the standard modulus for fabrics used are much higher. I do agree that you can probably control the resin ratio used (apart from what lands in the catch pot and what is left in the feed pot, but with prepreg if you want to lower your resin content, you can use a peel ply. You wouldn't want to lower it anymore than that though.

An interesting trial was made by Gurit. They made some blades by infusion and prepreg. Conclusion: prepreg blades outperformed infused blades in mechanical properties and production value (20% more blades produced in the same amount of time). Infused blades cost less in materials, although prepreg cost less in labour.

Not to diss infusion though. I think its got its place (bonnets, boat hulls etc). Just because I don't do it day to day doesn't mean I wouldn't chose it for a particular job if it called for it.
.



What he said...

Lets face it F1 chassis are not infused and Pr-preg is the material of choice for the highest spec parts.. I wouldn't think I could get my seat/fuel tank down to less than 3Kg and be structural any other way....






I can feel a Pre-Preg verses Infusion challenge coming on!!!!!!!!!Wink

If you don't already know this then when you get chance do a bit of research into why Pre-Preg was developed, you may be surprised.Smile
As for the F1 comparison then unless you are very lucky or very rich and have an Autoclave then the pre-pregs and processes are not practical for the home user.
You can and I have "recreate" the pre-preg look, neat cut lines, glossy reverse side, creases from the release film etc using Infusion. In fact one part I did even fooled a composites chap from an F1 team that sound like Bed Dull Tongue

Carbon Copies Ltd
GO

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mawgan - 12 Years Ago
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                 [quote][b]morepower (22/08/2013)[/b][hr]...
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