EL160 High Temp Epoxy Laminating Resin mould laminating

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EL160 High Temp Epoxy Laminating Resin mould laminating

EL160 High Temp Epoxy Laminating Resin mould laminating

EL160 High Temp Epoxy Laminating Resin mould laminating

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K.C.C	K.C.C posted 6 Years Ago HOT Topic Details
Group: Forum Members Posts: 54, Visits: 117	Hello, I have been working many years with the unimould system but now I going over to the High Temp mould system for the xpreg prepregs . I am laminating the mould with 1 layer 100G woven glass than 1 layer 280G woven glass after this I let it set to gell han I put 2 layers of 400G woven glass and stop with 1 layer 100G glass to finish. Are this enough layers for the moulds ? And also "why I dont like epoxy " is there a way to not get the air coming up to the high spots in the moulds . I make superbike fairings and they got alot of shard , round edges and when the glass and epoxy is just layed down , I dont got any airbubbles but after time the wil show up at high spots . This is why I first put the 100G and 280G and leave them to gell first .
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K.C.C	K.C.C posted 5 Years Ago HOT Post Details
Group: Forum Members Posts: 54, Visits: 117	+x carbon man - 10/31/2020 6:21:04 AM +x K.C.C - 12/26/2019 4:08:11 PM Started with some smaler moulds again today . ad some small high temp epoxy moulds made before and they had no problem and I remember I only used 1 layer gelcoat How are you getting on now? I hate this system! So many delamination and cracks. I literally can't make moulds using 2 layers of gel or it will crack, chip and delaminat iv tried applying the 2nd layer of gel with every different stage of tack. Now I make just using 1 layer of gel. Moulds are better but still after 6 pulls I got a hair line crack. All my moulds are small like 8 inch. I fear if I make a large moulds it will just break! And I'm having to make them really thick using several layers 650g carbon for backing. Let me know if you have a solution. Thanks I kept working with 1 layer gel but I do wait 4 to 5 days before demoulding and atleast 7 days before postcuring I'm now testing 2 layers of gel again reducing the time between the layers and at first sight this looks good . Problem also is that when you work with parts that have verry small edges that need to be trim off you need to look out not putting the gel to thin on there Differend thickness of gell, difference in curing. I use first 2 layers of 200G twill 2X2 let this gell up for some time than I add 2 layers 400G twill 2X2 ending with last layer of 200G twill 2X2. And than let it cure for 4 to 5 days. I finished 2 new moulds this week with 2 layers gel , wil keep you posted the results
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carbon man	carbon man posted 5 Years Ago HOT Post Details
Group: Awaiting Activation Posts: 86, Visits: 1.2K	+x K.C.C - 10/31/2020 7:47:43 AM +x carbon man - 10/31/2020 6:21:04 AM +x K.C.C - 12/26/2019 4:08:11 PM Started with some smaler moulds again today . ad some small high temp epoxy moulds made before and they had no problem and I remember I only used 1 layer gelcoat How are you getting on now? I hate this system! So many delamination and cracks. I literally can't make moulds using 2 layers of gel or it will crack, chip and delaminat iv tried applying the 2nd layer of gel with every different stage of tack. Now I make just using 1 layer of gel. Moulds are better but still after 6 pulls I got a hair line crack. All my moulds are small like 8 inch. I fear if I make a large moulds it will just break! And I'm having to make them really thick using several layers 650g carbon for backing. Let me know if you have a solution. Thanks I kept working with 1 layer gel but I do wait 4 to 5 days before demoulding and atleast 7 days before postcuring I'm now testing 2 layers of gel again reducing the time between the layers and at first sight this looks good . Problem also is that when you work with parts that have verry small edges that need to be trim off you need to look out not putting the gel to thin on there Differend thickness of gell, difference in curing. I use first 2 layers of 200G twill 2X2 let this gell up for some time than I add 2 layers 400G twill 2X2 ending with last layer of 200G twill 2X2. And than let it cure for 4 to 5 days. I finished 2 new moulds this week with 2 layers gel , wil keep you posted the results Yes please do. How long are you leaving the 1st 2 layers to gel up? When I tried this it de laminated after post cure. And I applied the 2nd lot of carbon once the first lot was going off but still tacky.
	Reply Like 3
K.C.C	K.C.C posted 5 Years Ago HOT Post Details
Group: Forum Members Posts: 54, Visits: 117	+x carbon man - 10/31/2020 1:27:02 PM +x K.C.C - 10/31/2020 7:47:43 AM +x carbon man - 10/31/2020 6:21:04 AM +x K.C.C - 12/26/2019 4:08:11 PM Started with some smaler moulds again today . ad some small high temp epoxy moulds made before and they had no problem and I remember I only used 1 layer gelcoat How are you getting on now? I hate this system! So many delamination and cracks. I literally can't make moulds using 2 layers of gel or it will crack, chip and delaminat iv tried applying the 2nd layer of gel with every different stage of tack. Now I make just using 1 layer of gel. Moulds are better but still after 6 pulls I got a hair line crack. All my moulds are small like 8 inch. I fear if I make a large moulds it will just break! And I'm having to make them really thick using several layers 650g carbon for backing. Let me know if you have a solution. Thanks I kept working with 1 layer gel but I do wait 4 to 5 days before demoulding and atleast 7 days before postcuring I'm now testing 2 layers of gel again reducing the time between the layers and at first sight this looks good . Problem also is that when you work with parts that have verry small edges that need to be trim off you need to look out not putting the gel to thin on there Differend thickness of gell, difference in curing. I use first 2 layers of 200G twill 2X2 let this gell up for some time than I add 2 layers 400G twill 2X2 ending with last layer of 200G twill 2X2. And than let it cure for 4 to 5 days. I finished 2 new moulds this week with 2 layers gel , wil keep you posted the results Yes please do. How long are you leaving the 1st 2 layers to gel up? When I tried this it de laminated after post cure. And I applied the 2nd lot of carbon once the first lot was going off but still tacky. The gelcoats I wait 1u30min max at a room temp of arround 20°C the laminating also arround 1u30min you can wait longer but as soon as I see I cant move the first layers anymore Problem with epoxy resin is it got a verry low viscosity and when making complex parts with lots of sharp corners high spots etc. You got a perfect layup no air or dry spots, you come look 1H later and all the high spots are full of dry spots where the resin just had run down. Therefore the 280g 2x2 Twill Woven Glass Cloth from easycomposites is perfect for first 2 layers. It works so easy and keeps the resin on high spots when used correct, not to much resin or you get floating. When you only use carbon fibre you wont see the air or dryspots especially on complex parts Therefore I think you better could use first layers of 280g 2x2 Twill Woven Glass Cloth and when this is gelled just right you can back it up with carbon fibre. Edited 5 Years Ago by K.C.C
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EL160 High Temp Epoxy Laminating Resin mould laminating

K.C.C - 6 Years Ago

Nobody ? got other problem, the first layer gelcoat is delaminating from the second when I trim ther edges from the mould. The problem is most sertain that the first layer had set to long before I....

K.C.C - 6 Years Ago

Everybody on Holiday ? :p Got everything sorted out from above only question I stil got is I need to make the parts after work so I dont got the time to wait until the EL160 tooling gelcoat is at.....

K.C.C - 6 Years Ago

No, the best way to do it is to continue when the gelcoat is cured to it's b-stage. The only, and less strong alternative is to cure the gelcoat completely and then key it with sanding paper. You...

oekmont - 6 Years Ago

Really getting frustrated about this ! Been busy on a 3 partmould done everything like it needs to waited the gelcoat until its the B stage before second layer gelcoat and stil gelcoat is...

K.C.C - 6 Years Ago

Do you need to post cure the part before triming ?

K.C.C - 6 Years Ago

Also can somebody be clear on the B stage . When watching the video of the EG160 it looks the B stage is pretty hard and you need to make pressure to get the mark in the gelcoat . When I read more....

K.C.C - 6 Years Ago

If using expreg you can't leave gel coat and key up then gel coat at later stage because when you post cure it will delaminate.also I myself have had your problems coming from unimold system to epoxy...

Shaneer22 - 6 Years Ago

What post cure cycles do you use ?

K.C.C - 6 Years Ago

Also what oven do you have.

Shaneer22 - 6 Years Ago

Shaneer22 , thnx for your reply ! I dont let the gelcoat key up completly I can stil make a dent in it before I put second layer on it . But I think its stil to far cured that way. Like I said...

K.C.C - 6 Years Ago

You will find with epoxy gel coat the second gel coat should be applied a little earlier just try not to drag or disturb first coat.you will find if there is any voids air pockets when post curing ge...

Shaneer22 - 6 Years Ago

Ok thnx so I need to put it much earlier than I did more like between 1.5U and 2U . For not to disturb the first coat I heat the gelcoat before mixing this looks to help making it less thick

K.C.C - 6 Years Ago

Gel coat is very thixotrothic.i use standard post cure starts at 50 and ramps up over 13 hours to 120 then holds for and hour.but before you post cure leave at room temperature for a couple of days.....

Shaneer22 - 6 Years Ago

Post cured the part got no delamination few little air bubbles in the gelcoat only the mold got deofrmed at the splits .

K.C.C - 6 Years Ago

Think my temps are the problem . I got it up to 50° hold it 1H ramp 1° a minute to 70° hold 1H ramp 1° to 90° hold 1H ramp to 110° hold 1 h Ramp 1° to 110° hold 1H ramp 1° to 125° hold 3H

K.C.C - 6 Years Ago

Did you post cure with split Mold bolted together if not that could be a cause.also you Mold lay might not be orientated right if your Mold was thick that probably wouldn't be a problem.iam testing e...

Shaneer22 - 6 Years Ago

The mold was bolted together. I tried a difirent methode with this mold ,what might be the problem . I had the 2 layers of gelcoat than cuppling layer gelcoat , a layer of arround 4 mm el160...

K.C.C - 6 Years Ago

May be worth testing some ex preg on unimold.ive got tooling ex preg in oven I debaulked every ply so I will no in 30 hours what results are.

Shaneer22 - 6 Years Ago

Started with some smaler moulds again today . ad some small high temp epoxy moulds made before and they had no problem and I remember I only used 1 layer gelcoat

K.C.C - 6 Years Ago

May try 1 layer gel coat then.i no when I have been trimming mold flanges with disc cutter gel coat has separated from second layer as if it has not bonded and Ian 100 percent it's not my lay up.

Shaneer22 - 6 Years Ago

Same here thing when you trim moulds to part size you better use 1 layer to be sure . What parts do you make ?

K.C.C - 6 Years Ago

+ x [quote] [b] K.C.C - 12/27/2019 8:03:17 AM [/b] + x [quote] [b]...

Shaneer22 - 6 Years Ago

Fairing for my bike.

Shaneer22 - 6 Years Ago

Just demolded tooling.

Shaneer22 - 6 Years Ago

How are you getting on now? I hate this system! So many delamination and cracks. I literally can't make moulds using 2 layers of gel or it will crack, chip and delaminat iv tried applying the 2nd...

carbon man - 5 Years Ago

I kept working with 1 layer gel but I do wait 4 to 5 days before demoulding and atleast 7 days before postcuring I'm now testing 2 layers of gel again reducing the time between the layers and at firs...

K.C.C - 5 Years Ago

Yes please do. How long are you leaving the 1st 2 layers to gel up? When I tried this it de laminated after post cure. And I applied the 2nd lot of carbon once the first lot was going off but still.....

carbon man - 5 Years Ago

The gelcoats I wait 1u30min max at a room temp of arround 20°C the laminating also arround 1u30min you can wait longer but as soon as I see I cant move the first layers anymore Problem with epoxy...

K.C.C - 5 Years Ago

Tooling seems to work fine ? I'm making 4 little moulds today again with 1 layer gelcoat pc nice belly from your bike what bike is it ? also noticed to put down the gelcoat I get better results usin...

K.C.C - 6 Years Ago

I use angled fitchs from brewers paint shop stiffer so easier to use.put the tooling mold is in oven again to do final post cure.the mold is a lot thinner in carbon it will be interesting how part...

Shaneer22 - 6 Years Ago

just had my el160 laminating resin down on the 1 layer geloat parts. Only problem I noticed it that on sharp edges the EL160 desolves the gelcoat and you can see the part thru it. Dont know how big a...

K.C.C - 6 Years Ago

Trial and error and testing just laid up this part going to leave it for a day at room temp then cure.useually I bake straight away.

Shaneer22 - 6 Years Ago

How did it go ? I made 6 little test moulds with 1 layer gelcoat and they came out perfect , post cured them and trimmed all good . Had 2 other small moulds with 2 layers waited only 1U30min between....

K.C.C - 6 Years Ago

I am out at present will let you no when I get home interesting results.

Shaneer22 - 6 Years Ago

First thing sprocket cover made using pre preg tooling.came out near perfect see photo.second part using high temp resin system not so good dry patches.you can't see in photo.extended cure only...

Shaneer22 - 6 Years Ago

+ x [quote] [b] Shaneer22 - 12/30/2019 3:56:48 PM [/b] + x [quote] [b]...

Shaneer22 - 6 Years Ago

Looks good, I just demouled 4 parts with the high temp resin 1 gelcoat layer . Pretty happy with results 1 part some minor pinholes arround the bolt point , this is Always a pain in the …. with bike....

K.C.C - 6 Years Ago

Your using x preg.

Shaneer22 - 6 Years Ago

yes I'm using x preg also with the same high temp 1 layer gelcoat moulds

K.C.C - 6 Years Ago

These are all my 1 layer gelcoat moulds 2 stil need to be trimmed . These are all my 2 layer moulds at the dumpster This I also made out of 1 layer gelcoat mould This I made also with X preg...

K.C.C - 6 Years Ago

Looks good a lot of parts there.what cure cycle did you use on unimold and any issues.i think your going to like xpreg tooling a it more work.

Shaneer22 - 6 Years Ago

I used the same on the unimould as on the high temp epoxypost cured them the same and for the prepreg . 4H soak at 70° 1H post cured the mould the same Only issu was few pinholes where you put the...

K.C.C - 5 Years Ago

I had a new part tested today I added a layer ofXPREG XC110 416g at the mounting poits of a part so 2 layers ofXPREG XC110 416g where the part is bolted to the bike and I got pinholes only at the...

K.C.C - 5 Years Ago

Stil nobody more info on the 2 layers gelcoat? Made a new mould with 1 layer and found the only negative side , you need to let the gelcoat cure longer and wait longer for demoulding so you wont get...

K.C.C - 5 Years Ago

Everybody stil in Holiday ? :p

K.C.C - 5 Years Ago

Sounds like you left the gelcoat a little too long at the b stage before overcoating. Generally that is the main reason you could have delamination between gelcoat layers.

Warren (Staff) - 5 Years Ago

If this is the main reason than what are the other ones ? :Whistling:

K.C.C - 5 Years Ago

you could have some surface contamination or maybe an old resin that has not cured properly/not achieved its designed mechanical properties. Although both of these are so rare I have never heard of i...

Warren (Staff) - 5 Years Ago

Mpulds are stil working good only weird thing I got is one mould the gelcoat is turning yellow to brown in color . I took a picture of an other mould on it ,both made the same way I got arround 10...

kip - 5 Years Ago

Very strange. Did the oven go higher in temperature for some reason?

Warren (Staff) - 5 Years Ago

No, there were other moulds in the oven that didn't got the color The part was fine out of the mould but its just strange it looks like this

kip - 5 Years Ago

I have made a few moulds with this system and use them repeatedly in my autoclave. I ended up putting one gel down then going on with the full layup and then vac bagging. With the gel, I kept an eye....

benji82 - 5 Years Ago

like you said but I had the second gelcoat down when it wouldn't stick to the glove when touching lightly when putting some pressure I could get the gel to stick to my gloves even pull it off the par...

K.C.C - 5 Years Ago

Yeah, this is what I was finding but worrying that it was just me. Also, my moulds have gone a bit brown. I haven't had any problems with this and I'm just putting it down to the temperature cycles.....

benji82 - 5 Years Ago

Thats the problem with my moulds they are 90% moulds with up to 5 splits 1 part moulds vacuum or infusion would make it that much more simple .

K.C.C - 5 Years Ago

This was the EL160 infusion experiment. A couple of little areas broke away when demoulding but I didn't give it a bit of time in the oven. After the post cure the surface went a bit funky which I...

benji82 - 5 Years Ago

seatcover BMW S1000RR :p But this looks really nice !

K.C.C - 5 Years Ago

Maybe

benji82 - 5 Years Ago

I make these ones

K.C.C - 5 Years Ago

Nice! I guess you know that these simple looking parts can be a pain in the backside when it comes to mounting points and clips! Sometimes this is quite difficult to get across to a customer.

benji82 - 5 Years Ago

Ppl really dont know how much work there is in one complete fairing set and the prices are way to low for the work actually . But I love doing it I make arround 30 sets a year but 10 for myself :)

K.C.C - 5 Years Ago

I got all vinylester moulds for the S1000RR 2015 to 2018 model and 2019 model also. Now Im starting to make the moulds in EL160 so I can make some carbon parts if we need them. Just demoulded a new....

K.C.C - 5 Years Ago

some moulds

K.C.C - 5 Years Ago

Good work! Are you using Nord vinylester? I'm going to experiment with Uni-mould and see if I can get some reasonable prepreg parts out of them.

benji82 - 5 Years Ago

That I dont know, I'm using these mould making resins for over 10 years now from the same company, they look verry simular to the unimould resins. You can get good prepreg parts out of them. I only.....

K.C.C - 5 Years Ago

Hy KCC, Thanks for all these informations. I plan on making mould with eg160 gelcoat and el160 laminating resin so all of this is very useful. As I can understand, you wait approx. 1:30h between...

Dentex - 5 Years Ago

Technecal data sheet EG160: The second gelcoat layer as well as main reinforcement application must be made whilst the previous gelcoat application is still in its ‘b-stage’ which means that it is.....

K.C.C - 5 Years Ago

If I understood you right, you were saying that if fiberglass is used as first layer, you are able to see lifted and dry fabric before adding second layer? I guess you push those parts back when resi...

Dentex - 5 Years Ago

Not completely the difference is that you can see air when working with fibreglass and so you can make sure you dont got air trapped or dry spots, I stay in the room all the time until its gelled and...

K.C.C - 5 Years Ago

All clear :) I have one more question which you will know the answer since you already work with those materials. My MDF plug is long and thin, so when it is placed on flat surface, it touches...

Dentex - 5 Years Ago

Can you send a pic pls :D

K.C.C - 5 Years Ago

Its not the best picture but as I told, on both ends it touches the surface, but in the middle of the part it "hangs" to touch surface and that hang results in curved instead straight upper part. My...

Dentex - 5 Years Ago

I'm hoop I'm thining in the correct direction. I would use for example a other wood plait little bigger than the part and lvl the part out on that plate, hod it in place with screws or if it cant be....

K.C.C - 5 Years Ago

Air entrapment in carbon can be really be reduced by using a Bristle roller . Its more commonly seen on wet lay flat sheet production but could be beneficial here as the bristles get between the...

Warren (Staff) - 5 Years Ago

Bristle rolles I never used before , always used normal metal rollers. It can be done but sometimes when you get a part with so many roundings, corners you cant even get there with a roller and if yo...

K.C.C - 5 Years Ago

Yes, thats similar to what I was thinking. It straightens enough also when front end is not on surface, so I think I will place flat surface under half plug from left to center and left right side...

Dentex - 5 Years Ago

It just looks good thats why :D

K.C.C - 5 Years Ago

Can somebody tell me if this is correct. I see the xt135 prepreg tooling prepreg uses 1 layer of 250G and 2 layers of 415G adding up to 1080G m² So when I now handlaminate 6 layers of 200G twill 2X2....

K.C.C - 5 Years Ago

What is the question exactly? Is 6 layers of 200g carbon enough for a mould? If it is small, then probably yes. A tube should be quite rigid by default because of it's geometry, so 6 layers should be...

Hanaldo - 5 Years Ago

ok thnx

K.C.C - 5 Years Ago

Full glass mould vs full carbon mould the moulds were bolted against each other and when come out of oven after post cure they stil were looking perfect , unbolted them and they warped They stayed i...

K.C.C - 5 Years Ago

That is probably because of the shrinking of the big resin accumulation in the inside corners where the flanges start. As there is are no fibres there it won't make a difference whether you use carbo...

SleepingAwake - 5 Years Ago

The shrinking is more on the edges on the part itself and some on the flanges. I need to pull each side "open" to get the bolts in there. Yes I can stil bolt them together with force so it would be.....

K.C.C - 5 Years Ago

My post cure cycle (different resin system tho) is a lot slower with 0.3°C/min and then a 10h at temp, and then again slow-ish ramp down.

SleepingAwake - 5 Years Ago

This is what was on the datasheet. The recommended post-cure cycle (above) calls for a temperature ramp from 50°C to 135°C. If a temperature controller with programmable ramp rate is not available...

K.C.C - 5 Years Ago

My gut feeling sais it is a little bit of both but it is hard to say and there are other people on here who have more experience with split moulds.

SleepingAwake - 5 Years Ago

Yeh I'm gonna say it's a combination of both as Lester suggested. Really I feel the actual issue is the ramp rate was too fast and you don't have a fine enough control over the oven temperature (I've...

Hanaldo - 5 Years Ago

The resin build up is the least problem because the part actually warped the most on the high spots ordered new oven cotroller and added more heater elements in the oven to get better controle....

K.C.C - 5 Years Ago

I feel like you should mostly improve air circulation. more heater elements doesn't necessarily decrease the temperature gradient?

SleepingAwake - 5 Years Ago

Proble is that at higher temp with not enough heater elements it takes to long to get the temp rising but when it does it rises to much and then cools down again. So you got a temp that isn't stable ...

K.C.C - 5 Years Ago

this sounds like a PID setting issue. you do not need a lot of heating power to get accurate control. and is this a convection oven or is there a blower anywhere? kinda hard to tell on this potato...

SleepingAwake - 5 Years Ago

Yes, because the low corners have pulled inwards, which will push those high corners outwards. In any case though, I don't feel the resin build up is THE problem, it just hasn't helped. The oven...

Hanaldo - 5 Years Ago

Nah I think some more heating elements will help too. I had the same issues with my 5x5x2m oven, it just couldn't heat fast enough to have a steady temperature, it had a lot of fluctuation. Had 3...

Hanaldo - 5 Years Ago

Oven got heater in the bottom with blowers control is now controlled with a new panasonic industrial heat controller . Temp is controlled over 0.1°C been busy on it for over a week to calibrate it an...

K.C.C - 5 Years Ago

It was stil possible to bolt the part together but when I started trimming the part gelcoat just started to crack from the stress in the part .

K.C.C - 5 Years Ago

Ok so what I would be looking at now is balancing your layup better. What is your reinforcement schedule and how are you laying it up? You obviously have significantly more stresses from shrinkage in...

Hanaldo - 5 Years Ago

Thnx for your info , my layup is 3 normal 3 filped over but didnt do the 45° for getting as much as pussible strengt in the direction of the way it warps. Wil do the 45° layup like you say the flange...

K.C.C - 5 Years Ago

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