Bubbles rising back into resin cup


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prairiecustomcomposites
prairiecustomcomposites
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Hey everyone,

I have been infusing parts using a two mould method to reproduce a curved piece with smooth surfaces on both sides. Unfortunately, during my infusion, once the epoxy reaches the vacuum line side and it starts spurting bubbles into the catch pot (see the middle-right circle), small bubbles started to climb back up the resin line, which is connected to the resin feed pot (see bottom circle). I can't seem to get it to stop. During my first infusion of this part it did not have any adverse effects, but it still concerns me that air is:

a) apparently not all the air is moving towards the flow of vacuum - ie. towards the vacuum pump
b) there shouldn't be bubbles in there regardless. The only bubbles I could think of are ones that get mixed in with the epoxy and do not have a chance to off-gas out of the mixture before they are sucked into the part. I realized that a degassing chamber would help fix this, so I am going to build one.



And yes I just realized that you can't read the print so ignore that part of the picture haha.

Anyways, if anyone else has experience this, or knows what it may be, that would be a big help. It is unfortunate that it is a closed mould, as I cannot see the details of where these bubbles are coming from. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

-Mike-
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prairiecustomcomposites
prairiecustomcomposites
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Thanks for all the advice guys. I have since pulled two more from that mould, and both turned out great. I think allowing it to FULLY de-gas has helped tremendously, and heating the resin and mould makes a world of difference too.

For these parts, I am using 31grams of mixed epoxy, and it takes about 5 minutes to fully de-gas. I am using infusion grade epoxy, and have degassed at full vacuum and it doesn't appear to boil off any solvents (as it still hardens at the end of the cure cycle). I definitely see this as a problem with other epoxies, so it is a good thing to be aware of, but it doesn't appear to affect the epoxy I am using.

The nice thing about my setup, is I can de-gas the epoxy right in the resin pot, and then remove the vacuum line and begin infusing right away. It eliminates the air that would normally be between the epoxy and the line clamp to begin the infusion. The picture below is the modified cup



The plastic cup I am using is actually from the local dollar store, and has a silicone seal for its lid. I just drill and tap a couple connectors on the top and bottom, and now it is really easy to see how fast the resin is being sucked into the part. This works nicely for testing new moulds where the exact amount of resin required is unknown. The cup is also double walled, so if I ever get fancy, I might include a water-jacket in between the two walls to help regulate heat inside the resin pot.

Anyway, here are two pictures of the new, untrimmed "teardrops" with no bubbles or imperfections.


Teardrop #2


Teardrop #3


Teardrop Mould

As a side note, I have found it very easy to place the fabric inside the mould even without using any spray-tac. I used the first teardrop mould as a buck (the one with bubbles and general nastiness) to press the fabric into place inside the mould. While I hold it there, I tape down the edges of the fabric to the flanged area on the mould. Now, when I pull the teardrop shape buck out, the fabric is well placed. Then, when I am setting the vacuum bag up, I begin by placing the vacuum bag around the teardrop shape buck and set it into the mould. This way, I know the vacuum bag will be able to reach the inside and not create any bridging. It has worked fantastically well, and while it may not work on every mould (especially ones with a really thick layup), it certainly worked here.


To summarize, here are the important steps I have learned from these tests.

1. Always fully de-gas the resin. It makes a huge difference in the amount of bubbles that travel through your part. Visually, once the resin reaches the vacuum port at the end of the part, there were noticeably less bubbles as compared to when I did not de-gas.

2. Heating the mould and heating the epoxy makes everything easier.
It allows the epoxy to flow much easier, it de-gases faster, its just a plain old  good idea when infusing to warm everything up. I want to get an infrared thermometer to measure how just how warm, "warm" should be.

3. Ensuring that there are no leaks is insanely crucial. I saw on another forum that some people will infuse as long the leakdown test does not drop more than 0.5inHg in an hour. I have had infusions that came out perfect with 0.5inHg leakage per hour, and have had infusions that have failed horribly with 0.5inHg leakage per hour. So I don't know where I stand yet on this, but I am certain through my tests above, that a leak is what caused the resin to climb back up the resin feed line on my original panel. I think NikCFC is right about the bubbles, so find those leaks! Regardless, check out Fred's post about sealing edges of infusion mesh and spiral tubing.

4. Think of how gravity/buoyancy will effect any air inside the mould.
This is still in the testing phase, and I am certain it is not necessary if you have a fully sealed bag, but on both successful infusions of the teardrop, I setup the mould so that the resin inlet was below the vacuum inlet. I did this because I noticed something very interesting about the first failed infusion of the teardrop. There were bubbles trapped in the part, but they clung to the carbon fiber, almost as if they were trying to rise to the top of the part (on the backside), but were blocked by the fabric. I figured I could avoid this in my next teardrops by letting gravity/buoyancy allow the bubble to rise up to the vacuum inlet, in hopes that they would get sucked up. Again, I doubt this has any relevance, especially if you have no leaks and have de-gassed properly, but it is something I will try to test and determine its effectiveness.


Overall I am pretty happy with my procedure now. And I do want to thank everyone who has pitched in some information. I hope to keep posting and updating with new tests and projects on this thread. Now what to do with all these random teardrops? Christmas ornaments? I should have designed a testing mould for something that was useful haha.



But onto my next question. I saw someone mention that you HAVE to have your vacuum pump operating at a higher location than your resin pot for a good infusion. I could not for the life of me think why that would be the case. I can't ask him as his post is a couple years old, and I don't think hes been active on that forum for a while. So fellow composites people, any ideas why?
Edited 13 Years Ago by prairiecustomcomposites
fgayford
fgayford
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Your tear drop looks really neat. As for the guy who said that you need the vacuum pump higher than the mold. It seems to me that what he is doing is by having the vacuum pump lets say 4 feet higher during infusion, excess resin coming out would have a harder time getting into the pump for it would have to travel UP 4 feet of line. If the pump was on the ground it would flow into the pump immediately. He was probably not using a catch pot. As far as vacuum goes, it doesen't matter where the pump is. 

Fred     
GO

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prairiecustomcomposites - 13 Years Ago
fgayford - 13 Years Ago
prairiecustomcomposites - 13 Years Ago
prairiecustomcomposites - 13 Years Ago
fgayford - 13 Years Ago
neilb - 13 Years Ago
prairiecustomcomposites - 13 Years Ago
fgayford - 13 Years Ago
prairiecustomcomposites - 13 Years Ago
             thanks for sharing that information!
matthieutje65 - 13 Years Ago
fgayford - 13 Years Ago
Kevin-Lee - 13 Years Ago
Warren - 13 Years Ago
NikCFC - 13 Years Ago
fgayford - 13 Years Ago
prairiecustomcomposites - 13 Years Ago
fgayford - 13 Years Ago
Warren - 13 Years Ago
Leon - 13 Years Ago

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