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Matt (Staff) - 5/29/2019 2:16:56 PM

+x

 

Eddie Walsh - 5/29/2019 1:40:39 PM

+x

 

Matt (Staff) - 5/29/2019 1:07:47 PM

+x

 

Eddie Walsh - 5/29/2019 9:56:23 AM

+x

 

oekmont - 5/29/2019 5:23:58 AM

I did advice you against using powder bound mat. I did advice you to make a small test to be shure that your mat is powder bound. I did advice you to make small tests first with every new materials. And I advice everyone here to start as easy as you can. And the data sheet of the tooling gelcoat told you not to use it at 15°. After that, I told you not to keep going and waste additional material on this hopeless attempt. You did it anyway. And we changed your mind not to destroy your project with vacuum bagging. I guess this was the only time you took our advice. I really can't see how this failed due to bad advice. In my eyes it failed because of rushed action and stubbornness.

Hi Oak & Han, no one advised not to use Powderbound before ?? as if they had I would have never even tried it ? as I would trust the experts ??,  everyone advised afterwards, and why would Mat advise anyone to use it if it was so problematic ?? beyond me, again Thanks for all your good advice, we live and learn, Regards DM

Hello Eddie, I'm afraid I don't get much time on the forum these days so I've not really been involved in this thread since my last input towards the beginning however I did just want to set the record straight on the powder-bound mat. The first thing I should say is that whilst we do our best with technical support over a forum we can't cover and explain everything in every post; there are nuances to working with just about all materials in composites and if I tried to explain them all in every post then it would be almost impossible to provide any support at all.

Referring specifically to the powder-bound chopped strand matt then yes, it is a bit difficult to work with however it is the industry's accepted binder for CSM when you're using resin which doesn't have a solvent content to break down a conventional emulsion binder. Polyester and vinylester have a solvent content (styrene) which breaks down emulsion bound mat very well. Epoxy doesn't have any solvent content and so it can't break down the binder used in emulsion bound CSM at all. For this reason, the industry has 'powder bound' CSM. The powder binder is more of a mechanical binder and needs quite a bit of working to break it down. I've used powder bound CSM many times, as have many others on this forum - some people are used to it and others don't like it and choose to use other reinforcements for their projects. In my opinion it's a bit annoying because it doesn't break down anywhere near as easily as emulsion bound mat does with a solvent-based resin but it does break down (sometimes I'll tear bits up by hand) and is the right choice if you want to use a CSM with epoxy resin. As you can appreciate, if I went into this level of detail about each of the materials I suggested you could or should use for your project it would have been very difficult to address your main questions, which tried to do as well as I could, giving you the benefit of my knowledge and experience.

For what it's worth, I did also suggest the alternative of a woven glass reinforcement for your mould and you could have asked or done your own research into the pros and cons of these different reinforcements.  I did also suggest you would need our EMP160 epoxy paste for your mould reinforcement. The reason I included this on the list is because both reinforcement options available for a hand-lay epoxy matrix mould (woven glass cloth or PB CSM) are tricky to work with a are difficult to get to sit properly into corners etc. With the paste you can use it in all the tighter areas of your mould; inside corners, tight radii etc so that the woven glass or PB CSM don't really need to do much by way of close conformity.

I hope that clears things up a little on the PB CSM. At the end of the day we are here to help, as are others on the forum. Advice is given in good faith but it can't cover everything and it can't guarantee results as much as I wish it could. I'd like to think this forum can stay a cordial and respectful place.

All the best, Matt

Hi Matt, Thanks for that very full explanation ,Yes I remember you suggested PB CSM and Woven glass, but you did not mention any problems with either or just how difficult the PB CSM was to work with ??, as if you had and I went ahead anyway and used it then I would have been prepared, and yes I did also use your EMP160 EP which I found very good, so again Thanks Eddie

Thanks Eddie, appreciate your comments. A member of staff here did mention to me that we can see your orders for all the other materials but no record of having supplied any PB CSM. I'm sure it's water under the bridge now but if you did buy the PB CSM elsewhere I assume you did make certain it was powder-bound?

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Eddie Walsh - 5/29/2019 1:40:39 PM

+x

 

Matt (Staff) - 5/29/2019 1:07:47 PM

+x

 

Eddie Walsh - 5/29/2019 9:56:23 AM

+x

 

oekmont - 5/29/2019 5:23:58 AM

I did advice you against using powder bound mat. I did advice you to make a small test to be shure that your mat is powder bound. I did advice you to make small tests first with every new materials. And I advice everyone here to start as easy as you can. And the data sheet of the tooling gelcoat told you not to use it at 15°. After that, I told you not to keep going and waste additional material on this hopeless attempt. You did it anyway. And we changed your mind not to destroy your project with vacuum bagging. I guess this was the only time you took our advice. I really can't see how this failed due to bad advice. In my eyes it failed because of rushed action and stubbornness.

Hi Oak & Han, no one advised not to use Powderbound before ?? as if they had I would have never even tried it ? as I would trust the experts ??,  everyone advised afterwards, and why would Mat advise anyone to use it if it was so problematic ?? beyond me, again Thanks for all your good advice, we live and learn, Regards DM

Hello Eddie, I'm afraid I don't get much time on the forum these days so I've not really been involved in this thread since my last input towards the beginning however I did just want to set the record straight on the powder-bound mat. The first thing I should say is that whilst we do our best with technical support over a forum we can't cover and explain everything in every post; there are nuances to working with just about all materials in composites and if I tried to explain them all in every post then it would be almost impossible to provide any support at all.

Referring specifically to the powder-bound chopped strand matt then yes, it is a bit difficult to work with however it is the industry's accepted binder for CSM when you're using resin which doesn't have a solvent content to break down a conventional emulsion binder. Polyester and vinylester have a solvent content (styrene) which breaks down emulsion bound mat very well. Epoxy doesn't have any solvent content and so it can't break down the binder used in emulsion bound CSM at all. For this reason, the industry has 'powder bound' CSM. The powder binder is more of a mechanical binder and needs quite a bit of working to break it down. I've used powder bound CSM many times, as have many others on this forum - some people are used to it and others don't like it and choose to use other reinforcements for their projects. In my opinion it's a bit annoying because it doesn't break down anywhere near as easily as emulsion bound mat does with a solvent-based resin but it does break down (sometimes I'll tear bits up by hand) and is the right choice if you want to use a CSM with epoxy resin. As you can appreciate, if I went into this level of detail about each of the materials I suggested you could or should use for your project it would have been very difficult to address your main questions, which tried to do as well as I could, giving you the benefit of my knowledge and experience.

For what it's worth, I did also suggest the alternative of a woven glass reinforcement for your mould and you could have asked or done your own research into the pros and cons of these different reinforcements.  I did also suggest you would need our EMP160 epoxy paste for your mould reinforcement. The reason I included this on the list is because both reinforcement options available for a hand-lay epoxy matrix mould (woven glass cloth or PB CSM) are tricky to work with a are difficult to get to sit properly into corners etc. With the paste you can use it in all the tighter areas of your mould; inside corners, tight radii etc so that the woven glass or PB CSM don't really need to do much by way of close conformity.

I hope that clears things up a little on the PB CSM. At the end of the day we are here to help, as are others on the forum. Advice is given in good faith but it can't cover everything and it can't guarantee results as much as I wish it could. I'd like to think this forum can stay a cordial and respectful place.

All the best, Matt

Hi Matt, Thanks for that very full explanation ,Yes I remember you suggested PB CSM and Woven glass, but you did not mention any problems with either or just how difficult the PB CSM was to work with ??, as if you had and I went ahead anyway and used it then I would have been prepared, and yes I did also use your EMP160 EP which I found very good, so again Thanks Eddie

+x

 

Matt (Staff) - 5/29/2019 1:07:47 PM

+x

 

Eddie Walsh - 5/29/2019 9:56:23 AM

+x

 

oekmont - 5/29/2019 5:23:58 AM

I did advice you against using powder bound mat. I did advice you to make a small test to be shure that your mat is powder bound. I did advice you to make small tests first with every new materials. And I advice everyone here to start as easy as you can. And the data sheet of the tooling gelcoat told you not to use it at 15°. After that, I told you not to keep going and waste additional material on this hopeless attempt. You did it anyway. And we changed your mind not to destroy your project with vacuum bagging. I guess this was the only time you took our advice. I really can't see how this failed due to bad advice. In my eyes it failed because of rushed action and stubbornness.

Hi Oak & Han, no one advised not to use Powderbound before ?? as if they had I would have never even tried it ? as I would trust the experts ??,  everyone advised afterwards, and why would Mat advise anyone to use it if it was so problematic ?? beyond me, again Thanks for all your good advice, we live and learn, Regards DM

Hello Eddie, I'm afraid I don't get much time on the forum these days so I've not really been involved in this thread since my last input towards the beginning however I did just want to set the record straight on the powder-bound mat. The first thing I should say is that whilst we do our best with technical support over a forum we can't cover and explain everything in every post; there are nuances to working with just about all materials in composites and if I tried to explain them all in every post then it would be almost impossible to provide any support at all.

Referring specifically to the powder-bound chopped strand matt then yes, it is a bit difficult to work with however it is the industry's accepted binder for CSM when you're using resin which doesn't have a solvent content to break down a conventional emulsion binder. Polyester and vinylester have a solvent content (styrene) which breaks down emulsion bound mat very well. Epoxy doesn't have any solvent content and so it can't break down the binder used in emulsion bound CSM at all. For this reason, the industry has 'powder bound' CSM. The powder binder is more of a mechanical binder and needs quite a bit of working to break it down. I've used powder bound CSM many times, as have many others on this forum - some people are used to it and others don't like it and choose to use other reinforcements for their projects. In my opinion it's a bit annoying because it doesn't break down anywhere near as easily as emulsion bound mat does with a solvent-based resin but it does break down (sometimes I'll tear bits up by hand) and is the right choice if you want to use a CSM with epoxy resin. As you can appreciate, if I went into this level of detail about each of the materials I suggested you could or should use for your project it would have been very difficult to address your main questions, which tried to do as well as I could, giving you the benefit of my knowledge and experience.

For what it's worth, I did also suggest the alternative of a woven glass reinforcement for your mould and you could have asked or done your own research into the pros and cons of these different reinforcements.  I did also suggest you would need our EMP160 epoxy paste for your mould reinforcement. The reason I included this on the list is because both reinforcement options available for a hand-lay epoxy matrix mould (woven glass cloth or PB CSM) are tricky to work with a are difficult to get to sit properly into corners etc. With the paste you can use it in all the tighter areas of your mould; inside corners, tight radii etc so that the woven glass or PB CSM don't really need to do much by way of close conformity.

I hope that clears things up a little on the PB CSM. At the end of the day we are here to help, as are others on the forum. Advice is given in good faith but it can't cover everything and it can't guarantee results as much as I wish it could. I'd like to think this forum can stay a cordial and respectful place.

All the best, Matt

+x

 

oekmont - 5/29/2019 5:23:58 AM

I did advice you against using powder bound mat. I did advice you to make a small test to be shure that your mat is powder bound. I did advice you to make small tests first with every new materials. And I advice everyone here to start as easy as you can. And the data sheet of the tooling gelcoat told you not to use it at 15°. After that, I told you not to keep going and waste additional material on this hopeless attempt. You did it anyway. And we changed your mind not to destroy your project with vacuum bagging. I guess this was the only time you took our advice. I really can't see how this failed due to bad advice. In my eyes it failed because of rushed action and stubbornness.

+x

 

Hanaldo - 5/27/2019 11:48:31 PM

Jesus, some people just can't deal with life can they? Grow up.

Matt gave you advice in good faith. His advice was excellent advice, he just could not account for your skill or experience level. You have to realise that there is a learning curve with the project you took on. Don't think you are special for having wasted money on materials to get a bad result, virtually every single person on here has done the same thing - that's how learning is done. You can't expect to just turn up at a supply store, demand to know how to do something, spend a bit of money, and then take it personally when it doesnt work because YOU don't know what you are doing. f*** sake, this sort of response is exactly why most composite suppliers dont like to offer any sort of advice at all, because at least then that forces people to go out and do some work to try and learn.


Matt and Paul and Rich and Warren and everyone else at Easy Composites are game changers for what they have brought to this industry in terms of making projects like this achievable, and their customer service should set the standard for anyone running a business.