Best way to joint fabricated carbon strut structure.


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Tobias
Tobias
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For future reference, I've just had confirmation from customer service at Permabond that the correct adhesive for structural bonds between, for example, metal and composites is their ES550 and ES558. They are described as:                
         
            
               
                  "single-part epoxy pastewhich flows like solder when heated during curing.The adhesive is toughened for maximum impactresistance, along with excellent peel and shearstrength. ES558 is ideal for bonding a wide range ofmaterials including metals, ferrites, ceramics andcomposites."

ES550 is a non-flowing adhesive, whereas the 558 will flow through a capillary joint.

ET515 is described as:

"ET515 is a semi-flexible toughenedadhesive with good adhesion to a variety ofsubstrates such as wood, metal, ceramics and someplastics and composites. It’s a relatively fast curingepoxy; reaching handling strength in 15 minutes. It isideal for bonding different materials wheredifferential thermal expansion is anticipated."

This confirms my conclusion that the ET515 is best suited to situations where a bond between large surfaces which have differing tensile qualities, for example adhering a wood veneer to a piece of spring steel (if you can find an application for such a purpose). Comparing the shear strengths between the adhesives also confirms my findings: ET515 Mild steel 8 - 12 N/mm2, ES558/550 Steel 27 - 41 N/mm2.

Thankfully I don't think I had any failures due to leftover release agents. Most of the structure was built from pultruded tube, and all of the failure points were between the composite and metal components of the structure. My revised version of the structures will use different components and adhesives for sure.

                  
         
            
               
                   


                                                            
         
            
               
                  


                                                                                    
Warren (Staff)
Warren (Staff)
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If you are adhereing it to smooth (albeit degreased) aluminium then I would have expected the results you have had. This is why we advise keying BOTH surfaces.

We have had people use it for quite high loadings when joining tubes, certainly in the hundreds of kilos range on short tubes as well as additional shock and vibration.

Both the glue and resin are epoxy.  What i think has happened is the thinner epoxy resin mechanically bonded with the fine scratches on the surface of the aluminium, where as the more viscous epoxy based adhesive won't have flowed into the scratches as they are too fine.

Warren Penalver
Easy Composites / Carbon Mods - Technical Support Assistant
Tobias
Tobias
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I generally consider an adhesive to be something which adheres with a chemical bond, in this kind of setting. Hence I roughed the carbon with 240 grit and degreased the alloy in acetone. Using an adhesive that bonds, this should be sufficient. It would appear that the 515 adheres in the same manner that a silicone sealant does, and not with the tenacity of a cyanoacrylate or - even - the epoxy resin used with the carbon fibre which seems to actually adhere to aluminium pretty well.

Of all of the miles ridden on the framework built, the only failures I had were on joints where the ET515 was used, which I had to reinforce, en route, with garden wire (fancy).

What I learned is that carbon is a material that can be used for fabricated structures, however that any interfacing between it an another material is past what I can handle with my limited experience. ET515 is not the right adhesive, this is for sure. We traveled over 250 miles with 20+kg of luggage on carbon framed racks www.laureltache.tumblr.com

at over £30 when you include the syringe, nozzles and adhesive, ET515 is a very expensive mirror-tack.
ajb100
ajb100
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As above, I've used that to bond halves of wings together and not had a failure yet
Warren (Staff)
Warren (Staff)
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how big is the gap?? I have used ET515 personally for bonding inserts and its been a good bond.  You need to key the alloy properly. Some people go as far as putting grooves in or even knurling the end to be inserted.  

I guess you are using roll wrapped tubing?? Almost all roll wrapped tubes will come from the factory with a heavy coating of release agent still inside the tube, so you really need to ensure it is gone to get a good bond.

Some photos would be ideal.

If you're still having problems getting a good bond after that, then return us the glue and we will test it. It is theoretically possible to have a bad batch, although this has not happened to us yet.

Warren Penalver
Easy Composites / Carbon Mods - Technical Support Assistant
carbonfibreworks
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I will post an image of the part on Friday.
Regards Chris
carbonfibreworks.co.uk

http://www.talkcomposites.com/Uploads/Images/97e08777-693c-4af1-a27a-86cf.png
Shaneer22
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When bonding any metal I still use the wet sanding technique using 240 wet and dry sometimes 120 and sand metal with epoxy prior to bonding it really etches into the metal surface,belt and braces on my part.
Tobias
Tobias
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Hmm, this was a 20mm carbon tube, and the join was to a strut coming in below, by means of an aluminium sleeve which wrapped around the tube like a clamp - made from 20x2mm stock.
carbonfibreworks
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Hello Tobias
I have used the above adhesive on the top fairing mount on my classic racing motorcycle, i used it to join 10mm carbon tube to a piece of  pre preg plate . I abraded the parts to be bonded with 180 grit paper and the part is under load and the joint has been 100% reliable.
Regards Chris
carbonfibreworks.co.uk

http://www.talkcomposites.com/Uploads/Images/97e08777-693c-4af1-a27a-86cf.png
Tobias
Tobias
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It would appear that the ET515 has no structural value at all, as it seems to neither bond to degreased aluminium nor to roughed carbon, as in I can scrape it off either with my fingernail after three days of curing. I only discovered this when I had a catastrophic failure of a rather beefy join.

I kind of feel that the ET515 is no stronger than Araldite, no more nor less rigid, and in a similar manner is no more respective of its apparent 15 minute working time.

Warren (Staff) (11/07/2013)
They should be bonded in using a structural adhesive like our ET515Semi Flexible 15min Epoxy Adhesive  The braiding you want to add will just add further strength but isnt essential if you use inserts.

GO

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