Silicone bags, infuse or VPI & general discussion


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oekmont
oekmont
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It's a matter of how thick your cavity is compared to the thickness of your layup when it's compressed to the maximum. Your layup should be less than 1,5 mm. So if you use 1,5 mm wax sheets, you should have a good flow speed. No need for a flow pattern. It will only get your part stuck to the upper mould.
As long as you are not injecting 2min resins, you should get away without pressure injection.

Jones
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I thought you needed to inject the resins if you went for a closed top mold, and thereby needed expensive equipment.
I’m fine with lowering the fiber to epoxy ratio in order to skip the need of consumeables. Right now I’m using 650g carbon twill and a 440g bi-ax glass both at 45/45 to help with drape ability. And to help with keeping the part flexible lengthwise. So I’m not sure if I could modify the layup much more in order to keep the fiber content lower.
But I guess if I could make a closed mold with and integrated flow media like structure that would be even better, but more complicated to pull off I guess?
oekmont
oekmont
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If you want to so it, do it. This hobby is about try and failure. And success from time to time, of course.
I always use the fastest possible hardener. Usually 35min.
You might consider a closed mould. Theoretically the same elements as the silicone bag, but you can even get rid of the flow media and peelply, by reducing the fibre content willingly. If you are using glass backing layers, a little less fibre content will be ok anyways. If you want to go to the max, you could make a flash mould to make preform layups while the part in the real mould is curing, and then transfer them to mould for the next cycle.

Jones
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Thanks Matthieu and Oklemont for your replies! 
Feels like regular bags is the way to go, and it seems like I have some rethinking and practice to do in order in terms of my bagging process. 
I am very much intrigued to at least try to make silicone bags for the parts, as I have spent so much time thinking about using the process XD.

What I think about using is the following:
sealing and vacuum distribution like picture (1) see below
vacuum port as a hole in the mold flange below the sealing profile
Either make the part thickness using sheet wax, wet lay or infuse what do you recommend? (need to be careful about bringing) 
Resin flow by building these into the bag: https://www.kaupo.de/shop/en/VACUUM-BAGGING-SYSTEM/REFLOW-Flow-Promoter.html
Pour equal parts easy composite IN2 epoxy in each of the segments then cover and pull vacuum (Alan Harper style: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VdWm_Gg08Yw)

and as I am already going to lay both the carbon fiber and glass layer at 45/45 degrees in order for the part to flex easier, I can drape it into the mold as a single piece of cloth. as I am okay by leaving the 0.5 mm grid structure the flow mesh create on the final part the layup will be extremely fast.
I will use a brush on system for the silicone and im thinking the followup bags can be made using already finished parts cut to shape as they will have the flow mesh grid like structure already built into the part.

I could slightly modify the viscosity of the epoxy by altering the sousvide style water bath im already using to heat up unmixed epoxy resin. I could even use the fast hardener and possibly further modify the epoxy to have even fast turn around times.

Idk would it be worth a try? or am I just wasting my time and money? 

(1)



oekmont
oekmont
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I see that this is an annoying part to place the reinforcements etc. But in terms of bagging this is a relatively simple part. take some time to practice your bagging skills will be the most efficient way, I think. Making silicone bags and using them is not nearly as easy as these companies want you to think.

Matthieu Libeert
Matthieu Libeert
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Interesting topic, like above silicone bags can save you some time but are pretty expensive to make (including the learningcurve) and won't last as long as all the companies selling these "technique" are saying. 
The silicone will deteriorate after around 20 pulls because of the epoxy resin (something most won't tell selling these silicone kits) with polyester resin they last longer but I'm not a big fan of using polyester for resin infusion with carbonfiber. It's like selling a Ferrari with a Volvo engine :p 
Like Oekmont is saying it's sometimes better to improve your production process first. Seeing your pictures above I can already come up with various ways of making this part more efficiently:
- Make a bigger mould that hold 3 of these parts you are making now with a nice big flange (so you only need one bag for 3 parts) 
- Make a template to cut your peelply, can easily be done with one piece with some cuts in the corners and upstanding edges
- You might get away with that infusionmesh not going all they way up on those 90° edges over your part. Just make some cuts each time you have these. 
- Take a saturday afternoon to prepare all your bags, carbonfiber, peelply, infusionlines with spiral, .... will save you a lot of time if you prepare everything in bulk. 


parts look good by the way, good job there Wink 
  

Matthieu Libeert
Founder MAT2 Composites X Sports
website:
www.mat2composites.com




Jones
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5 minutes then I guess I need to work on my bagging skills, especially on complicated parts where I need to use peel ply, flowmech and perforated film, and cut them into a million pieces in order to avoid bridging, and on top of that I am having a real hard time having my bags 100% sealed. even after moving over to envelope baking im still having some slight problems as well as the annoying part of sanding the backside of the mold. if I could get rid of all the consumable and just lay the reinforcement as a single piece that would be a massive time saver on a part like this:




oekmont
oekmont
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I don't know what's the problem with usual bagging for everybody. To make a silicone vacuum bag for an everyday interior part (20×30 cm) I will need at least two hours, likely more. For traditional bagging I need less than 5 min. Even if you completely neglect the time you need to place the silicone bag, it will pay off not until the 24th part. Wich is round about the number of cycles these bags last while using epoxy resins, in my experience.
I use silicone bags for some high volume parts, but then I integrate a flow pattern as well, and make them in separate infusion bag moulds. These are typically three-a-day parts with volumes about 1000+ pieces. And it's only worth it if it's a split mould, otherwise a closed mould would be even faster and cheaper.

Jones
J
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yeah nah, of course im making more than one offs, otherwise I would more so be looking to speed up the mold making part. But the reason why im starting this thread is that I feel like there is very little information out there compared to resin infusion with regular bags. And I feel like there is some potential in silicone bags at fairly low entry costs.
Hanaldo
Hanaldo
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Are you making dozens of the same part, or are you doing one offs? I love reusable bags, but it is very much a production technique. The time and effort - and above all money - it takes to make a good, functional and reliable silicone vacuum bag, is well above what it takes to get a good leak free seal on a disposable vacuum bag.

The only real reason to use silicone vacuum bags is if you are making more than 10 of the same part, and then it will improve your production times. And realistically, you will waste some time and money in learning to make a good bag. 

Just food for thought in case you are thinking this might be the easier way to go for making one off components.
GO

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