uni mould system.../ mould release compatibility


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ARSOUILLERB26
ARSOUILLERB26
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Hi everyone Smile

Like you imagine, I need help about a few questions, I ll try to be short:


1)  My first question is about the uni mould making system:
I saw it's cheaper than epoxy mould systems, with high compatibility with epoxy and polyester (perfect for sticky spray).
So that is for the pros but does it exist cons?
Because if not, I will make each mould (big or not) with that system instead of epoxy. BigGrin


2)   I would like to know if it exist compatibility problems between the differents release systems (PVA, chemical or wax)?
For exemple, can I use the chemical release agent on a mould witch was waxed several times before?
Does the mould cleaner destroy the pva, was or chemical release barieer?


3)   I discovered your sticky spray on your tutorial witch looked awesome to keep layers in place before the infusion (a real problem for me) but actually, all my moulds was made with epoxy gel coat (I saw it cannot be used with)... Ermm
HAve you a solution for me? And when will it be available on you shop Wink?

thank you by advance for your answers BigGrin

cheers



Matt (Staff)
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Hi,

Sorry for the delay in getting back to you; answers to your questions as follows:

1)  My first question is about the uni mould making system:I saw it's cheaper than epoxy mould systems, with high compatibility with epoxy and polyester (perfect for sticky spray).
So that is for the pros but does it exist cons?
Because if not, I will make each mould (big or not) with that system instead of epoxy.


Uni-Mould has a lot of advantages but in terms of dissadvantages over an epoxy mould I guess that if made very well, a pure epoxy mould could be stronger which would be a benefit if you were doing high pressure (compression) moulding inside it.

Uni-Mould also has a strong smell when you're using it (like polyester) which is irrelevent to some people and a serious consideration for others; epoxy has very low odour and can pretty much be used anywhere.

The Uni-Mould system is very similar to traditional fibreglass in terms of the skill needed to make a good job of putting the reinforcement (the chopped strand mat) down properly. To some it's second nature but if you've never worked with fibreglass before then the process of wetting out the mat and 'dabbing' it down whilst the binder breaks down is a new process. Using our epoxy mould making putty even a complete beginner won't struggle to put the reinforcement (the putty) down properly (i.e. without any air voids).

2)   I would like to know if it exist compatibility problems between the differents release systems (PVA, chemical or wax)?For exemple, can I use the chemical release agent on a mould witch was waxed several times before?
Does the mould cleaner destroy the pva, was or chemical release barieer?


If you're going to apply a chemical release agent to a mould you really need to be starting with a clean mould, hence the existence of Mould Cleaner. Mould Cleaner will strip of any traces of wax, pva, other release agents etc. from the surface of the mould, leaving a clean surface which is ready to accept the Chemical Release Agent. Applying the Easy-Lease Chemical Release Agent over the top of anything else is certainly NOT recommended although, conversley, you can apply Mould Release Wax over the top of Chemical Release Agent.

3)   I discovered your sticky spray on your tutorial witch looked awesome to keep layers in place before the infusion (a real problem for me) but actually, all my moulds was made with epoxy gel coat (I saw it cannot be used with)... Ermm
HAve you a solution for me? And when will it be available on you shop Wink?


We'll be distributing an amazing spray-tack called Stay-Z from Zyvax but we're still waiting for our shipment to arrive. A batch of the product has been made specially for us and it's on its way to us now. It's taking a lot longer than expected to arrive but as soon as it arrives it will be available to buy on the site. The reason the product is so special is that it's epoxy based and designed specifically for epoxy infusion. Regular spray-tacks are designed for polyester resin (at best) which is very different chemistry. For lots of reasons (which I'll elaborate on in another post) if you're working with epoxy then you want a special epoxy compatible spray-tack. For less demanding applications (i.e. not against the mould surface or on less structual parts) any regular spray-tack like the 3M Scotch product or the various regular infusion spray tacks (which are basically just spray mount) are OK.

I hope this helps!

All the best, Matt

Matt Statham
Easy Composites / Carbon Mods - Technical Sales
ARSOUILLERB26
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No problem for the delay matt, really glad to read you.



1) the smell is not a problem for me, I work with fiberglass (with more or less success ^^) and I will practice for this new process. I think vinylester compatible spray tack can help for hard egdes or complex moulds. It look perfect for me.

But what to you mean about "high pressure moulding"?



2) I saw the chemical release agent allow to do a few "pulls" before to put chemical release again: will the mould cleaner remove totaly the chemical release agent? 







3) Really happy to read this, I bought a stay Z spray-tack yesterday (adviced by a composite french shop)
I'm happy to see it will be soon available on my favorite uk shop Wink

I don't understand something, you said in the tutorial the spray tack you use actually (not stay z I suppose) need compatible polyester epoxy gel coat, but the resin used is epoxy and not polyester: why the spray tack damage the gel coat (and mould release) and not the main resin (I'm curious ^^)



One more time matt, thank you very much for you answers

regards
Edited 12 Years Ago by ARSOUILLERB26
Matt (Staff)
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Hi,

You're welcome. Answers as follows:

But what to you mean about "high pressure moulding"?


Moulding processes that use more pressure than just vacuum pressure such as inflatable bladders, expanding cores or Resin Transfer Moulding (RTM) all put a lot more stress on a mould than vacuum pressure does. For these processes you need very strong mould and so an epoxy mould (or often billet aluminium!) is required.

2) I saw the chemical release agent allow to do a few "pulls" before to put chemical release again: will the mould cleaner remove totaly the chemical release agent?


Yes, the moud cleaner will strip off any previous release agents, waxes, pva or anything else. after using the mould cleaner it's like starting again on a new mould.

I don't understand something, you said in the tutorial the spray tack you use actually (not stay z I suppose) need compatible polyester epoxy gel coat, but the resin used is epoxy and not polyester: why the spray tack damage the gel coat (and mould release) and not the main resin (I'm curious ^^)


Well, the spray-tack issue is complicated! I'll try to explain the options and the consequences:

OPTION 1: Use a regular 'spray-tack' (like 3M spray-mount or any number of inexpensive repositionable mount adhesives) or any spray-tacks marketed as 'infusion' tack (but not expressly for epoxy) - these are basically all the same thing.
If you use this on the mould surface there is a danger that they will effect the release agent. They might be OK, they might not. Always use only a very light amount - the least you can get away with. They will always leave a visible dither pattern on the surface of your parts and the adhesive itself will need to be wiped off the surface of your parts. Used internally, within the laminate they will have a slight negative impact on the integrity of an epoxy laminate which could potentially lead to failure and delamination in extreme circumstances but more than likely will not have any noticeable consequences. Always use sparingly.

OPTION 2: Use an infusion spray-tack designed for epoxy infusion (Zyvax Spray-Z, Epox-Z)
These special epoxy compatible spray-tacks are designed to cross-link with the epoxy resin and so will not have any adverse effect on the laminate. Used sparingly on the mould surface they should be almost undetectable but use spraringly. Inside the laminate they cause no problems. For the positioning of the vacuum bagging consumables these epoxy compatible spray-tacks are probably not as good as normal spray tack so it might be worth having both and saving the fancy epoxy compatible one for the laminate and mould surface and using the cheaper standard spray tack for the bagging consumables.

OPTION 3: Use a mix of epoxy resin and metholated spirits sprayed onto the mould surface as a spray tack
This is the DIY option but works well for tacking carbon to the mould surface. Because you use the same resin that you use for the infusion (but thinned slightly) it cross-links completely with the infusion resin and so therefore is pretty much totally undetectable on the part surface. It's not a very good tack option for subsequent layers of carbon or bagging consumables because it takes a lot of prep time and doesn't offer much tack but it is nonetheless a good solution for tacking to carbon to the mould surface.

To do this option:

1. Mix a small amount of infusion resin with the correct amount of hardener.
2. Add about 10-25% of metholated spirits to the epoxy to thin it down.
3. Use a cosmetics bottle with a pump spray to spray a thin layer of the epoxy onto the mould surface.
4. Wait for the resin to cure to a 'B stage' (within an hour or 2) and then use this tacky surface to stick your carbon to.

I hope this explains your options.

Best regards, Matt

Matt Statham
Easy Composites / Carbon Mods - Technical Sales
Kevin-Lee
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Or you could take a look at this spray tack...

3M™ Adjustable Composite Positioning System 11095.

3M ACPS 11095.

http://a248.e.akamai.net/origin-cdn.volusion.com/3oysk.639mx/v/vspfiles/photos/70006732021-2.jpg?1337206575

..."
3M introduces the new 3M(TM) Adjustable Composite Positioning System (ACPS) 11095, an easy-to-use positioning spray designed for pre-infusion resin bond dry reinforcements and composite matrices. The unique properties of 3M ACPS 11095 enable it to integrate into the part during resin infusion, eliminating read-through and transition layers in the part post-cure. This patent-pending system offers manufacturers benefits in productivity, esthetics and flexibility. 3M ACPS 11095 is uniquely formulated to be compatible with most resin systems, including polyester, vinyl ester and epoxy resins. It goes down easily on both flat and curved mold designs, and after spraying, the product builds tack within seconds and is tack-free in two to three minutes. Designed with ease-of-use in mind, the product features a unique color change system that gives it a blue color when first sprayed, then fades to clear as it cures. With this feature, users can easily see the amount of coverage they've achieved, and also have a visual indication of the curing cycle. 3M ACPS 11095 is not affected by ambient temperature and/or humidity, allowing it to be used in a variety of manufacturing conditions.

Additional user-friendly features of 3M ACPS 11095 allow substrates to be easily repositioned without leaving fibers behind, simply by peeling back an individual layer and reapplying. If the coating dries before laying up of materials, an additional coating can be applied at a lower rate, which reactivates the previously applied coating. The product also enables manufacturers to use less than competitive brands.

3M ACPS 11095 has the ability to hold most types of reinforcement and to maintain the position of reinforcement for days without sagging. With typical usage, users will see little to no change in laminate shear properties. Available in aerosol cans as well as five-gallon and 55-gallon containers compatible with most traditional spray equipment, the product is also easy to clean up with most solvents. 3M ACPS 11095 is approved by Lloyd's Register and DNV"...

Cheers,

Kev.
Edited 12 Years Ago by Kevin-Lee
ARSOUILLERB26
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thank you for all that very accurate explanations matt, I tried the stay z yesterday: very usefull. It gives the impression to have the carbon undervaccum.... without vaccum ^^BigGrin

I have still air leaks (I will post about this) so I didn't make the infusion yet but I m really  hurry to see the result.

Thank you again
prsw
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Has anyone found this product in europe?


Kevin-Lee (16/06/2012)
Or you could take a look at this spray tack...

3M™ Adjustable Composite Positioning System 11095.

3M ACPS 11095.

http://a248.e.akamai.net/origin-cdn.volusion.com/3oysk.639mx/v/vspfiles/photos/70006732021-2.jpg?1337206575

..."
3M introduces the new 3M(TM) Adjustable Composite Positioning System (ACPS) 11095, an easy-to-use positioning spray designed for pre-infusion resin bond dry reinforcements and composite matrices. The unique properties of 3M ACPS 11095 enable it to integrate into the part during resin infusion, eliminating read-through and transition layers in the part post-cure. This patent-pending system offers manufacturers benefits in productivity, esthetics and flexibility. 3M ACPS 11095 is uniquely formulated to be compatible with most resin systems, including polyester, vinyl ester and epoxy resins. It goes down easily on both flat and curved mold designs, and after spraying, the product builds tack within seconds and is tack-free in two to three minutes. Designed with ease-of-use in mind, the product features a unique color change system that gives it a blue color when first sprayed, then fades to clear as it cures. With this feature, users can easily see the amount of coverage they've achieved, and also have a visual indication of the curing cycle. 3M ACPS 11095 is not affected by ambient temperature and/or humidity, allowing it to be used in a variety of manufacturing conditions.

Additional user-friendly features of 3M ACPS 11095 allow substrates to be easily repositioned without leaving fibers behind, simply by peeling back an individual layer and reapplying. If the coating dries before laying up of materials, an additional coating can be applied at a lower rate, which reactivates the previously applied coating. The product also enables manufacturers to use less than competitive brands.

3M ACPS 11095 has the ability to hold most types of reinforcement and to maintain the position of reinforcement for days without sagging. With typical usage, users will see little to no change in laminate shear properties. Available in aerosol cans as well as five-gallon and 55-gallon containers compatible with most traditional spray equipment, the product is also easy to clean up with most solvents. 3M ACPS 11095 is approved by Lloyd's Register and DNV"...

Cheers,

Kev.



http://motoform.blogspot.se

Warren (Staff)
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We haven't been able to source it either. It seems they have released the product then it's disapeared off the face of the earth!!

Warren Penalver
Easy Composites / Carbon Mods - Technical Support Assistant
prsw
prsw
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I have asked 3M Sweden but only got an answer that the product is not available in Sweden.

Warren (Staff) (06/03/2013)
We haven't been able to source it either. It seems they have released the product then it's disapeared off the face of the earth!!



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