Resin infusion of a double sided chair - issues with one side


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deagrateful
deagrateful
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Hi guys, I'm a furniture designer and after doing a few infusions (and then doing a great 3 day course @ easy composites) I'm absolutely hooked on composites. The possibilities in my field are endless and are barely being touched upon.

I'm currently working on a chair design which is a continuous curve and is usable in two different seating positions (reclined and social). The pattern (plug?) is made and all polished up ready for an infusion and I have an exact 1:6 scale replica for which I've been using to create the test models. I'm having issues with achieving a decent surface quality on the outside face.

I should mention that the final finish I am after on the outside face is the textured matt surface that peel ply leaves. This means that sanding isn't an option. The inside face is glossy.

All layers are securely tacked into place with epoxy spray adhesive. 

The first test had the following layers (working from the inside out):

pattern surface > 3 layers of 200gsm 2/2 twill carbon > peel ply > easy flow mesh > vac bag 

This resulted in a thickness of 0.7mm. The inside face was perfect and the outside was a little bumpy.

The second test was closer to the final desired thickness of 5mm and had the following players (from inside out again)

pattern surface > 1 x 200gsm 2/2 carbon > 1 x 650 gsm 2/2 carbon > 1 x 2mm lantor soric > 2 x 200gsm 2/2 carbon > peel ply (for finish effect) > vac bag

This resulted in a thickness of 3.5mm. The inside face was again perfect but the outside had a very undulated finish with light bunching. The infusion spiral and connectors left deep marks but on the actual pattern this won't be a problem as I have included wide flanges and they will be placed to the sides. This finish isn't even good enough for sanding and then skinning over with a light weave...

I can replace the Lantor Soric with a few layers of 650gms carbon which should give me a slightly better finish I guess... But this would reintroduce infusion mesh and would leave different marks.

So my question is how can I get a nice level and flat peel ply finish on the outside face? I'm pretty much up for trying anything at this point! If this isn't at all possible, what other options do I have? (an outside gloss face wouldn't be durable enough for a chair).

Any help would be extremely appreciated as I'm tearing my hair out at the moment!

FLD
FLD
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Firstly - awesome design, I love it!

The problem you are having is creases / uneveness in the peel ply.  You could try taking a little more time laying it in to try to avoid the creases.  The other option would be to sand it back, paint on more resin and lay over some peel ply to get your texture back.  It is tough to get it properly smooth with all the lay up so this might be an option.  Bear in mind that it will need some UV protection. 

I think it would look really good if you could sand it back and laquer the whole lot so that its shiney (use an anti-scratch lacquer).  Then, when the lacquer is dry, add a second coat of lacquer and put some shaped pieces of peel ply on the lacquer to get texture only on the seat part. Does this make sense?
ChrisR
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Missed this, nice design Wink

as FLD mentioned, some are creased from the peelply, others to me look like the outer layers are creased as well so it's most likely (as already mentioned) rushing the layup a little.

The "deep marks" from the infusion mesh also can indicate that the thing is so over rich with resin it's silly, unless thats the core collapsing (I've not used soric in infusion so not sure how it reactions with pipes over it) but a non cored layup would certainly not collapse like that.

You may find that on a larger piece like a chair, a 475 or 650 (i.e. larger) looks better as well so you could forego the 200 surface layer.

Just because you are using infusion mesh doesn't mean you can't use peelply between the mesh and the layup, it's normal to do that so you won't get the diamond pattern on the surface layer.

Another option may be to wet lay and vac bag (I know, I know) but you can stabilize the weave and make it easier to handle by fully wetting out each layer of material off the mould (like on a long piece of HDPE)  so it's almost dry then you can layup the part. (for that one best to use a resin with a long pot life (2hrs or so))
wozza
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Have to agree, looks like it's way too resin rich. So much so that the bag has gone very slack. That would account for the uneven surface, creases and the groove left by the spiral. Soric certainly doesn't collapse under vacuum. It should be perfectly possible to achieve the peel ply finish your after. I know this is a test piece but the position of the spiral won't have helped.
With the spiral on the flange the infusion should be much better, even with flow mesh without the Soric. With the flow mesh on top of the peel ply the surface finish wont be affected.
As others have said, very nice designSmile

Warren

Carbon Copies Ltd
Edited 10 Years Ago by wozza
deagrateful
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Thanks for taking the time out to help me with this guys, your advice is absolutely invaluable.

The sanding back and then re laying up with peel ply is something that hadn't crossed my mind and could work really well (it certainly takes away a little bit of the pressure of having to achieve a 100% layup in one shot).

@ FLD: Both layups were infused the same way and the test without the Soric didn't collapse (the pipes didn't indent the piece) so you may well be on to something here. I think I may forgo the Soric in favour of a few thicker layers of carbon f. Nice idea about the textured seating area! Could you recommend a decent non scratch lacquer?

@ Wozza: Forgive me for being a dunce Hehe, but how would I go about ensuring that the infusion is not so resin rich. I think my fears of pin holes may have meant that I clamped off the resin line to long after the vacuum line. Is it easier to accidentally over infuse when using a core such as Soric?

I'm glad the design seems to have gone down well, I can keep the forum updated with progress shots if anyone is interested?
Edited 10 Years Ago by deagrateful
wozza
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No apologies needed its all part of the learning curveSmile not an easy part for your first go. Soric will generally have a slower infusion rate than flow mesh. This can be a good thing, allowing the cloth to fully wet out eliminating pin holes.
The key is getting the resin front to travel evenly across the laminate. That way the resin should reach the vac outlet without leaving some parts lagging behind. If this happens you can end up leaving the feed line open whilst it catches up, result being a resin heavy laminate.
Ideally you want to be clamping off the vac line as soon as it starts to travel up the hose 50mm or so. Leave the feed line open a further 10-20 seconds depending upon the size of the part.
How/wear did you place the spiral, inlet and vac connectors? You may find you need multiple feeds and vac points to get an even infusion.
When not using flow mesh it is possible to get parts of the bag that are not under full vac, the bag can lock itself off if that makes sense.

Warren

Carbon Copies Ltd
deagrateful
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Hi Warren, that all makes sense, I hadn't realised that it was possible to over infuse by that much (I had assumed that the resin would just stop flowing when the cloth was fully saturated for some reason).

On the scale model the resin in line is placed in the middle of the pattern (see this pic). This is due to a lack of space on the model but on the actual full size pattern it will be placed on the side flange. This is quite hard to explain but I will try and annotate an image to show what I mean: HERE

Obviously the full-size version was just my original idea prior to testing, so you most likely have a much better suggestion! It's hard to figure out the resin path when it's a 360 degrees pattern. The bit about the bag locking itself off makes perfect sense, we have the same issues when vac bagging wooden veneers and use breather fabric to ensure it doesn't happen. Getting the resin front to travel evenly across this shape seems tricky, especially considering the vacuum hose will have to be placed on the side face.

Thanks again for all your help Smile



Hanaldo
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My favourite thing about infusion is its possible to very accurately calculate your resin requirements. If you work out the size of your part in square metres, then you can work out how much of each material you need to cover the part. Then you know the weights of each fabric you are using, so you can multiply the fabric weight by the total area and then divide that number by 1.5 to get a 60/40 fibre to resin ratio. Then infusion mesh uses 700g of resin per square meter, or Soric uses 550g per square meter per millimetre thickness. Add 100g resin to allow waste for the hoses and bottom of the cup and you're set! 
wozza
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Did quite a bit of head scratching over this last night so please excuse the long replySmile

I would be almost making this into two infusions, top and bottom if you like. As adding flanges in the normal manner will give you release issues the only thing I could come up with (not sure why it took me so long) was to just make the full size mould 100mm or so wider than the finished chair width. That way you can keep the spiral and hose connectors off the finished laminate.
As you have done I would run the spiral a full 360 degrees around one edge, but have two resin inlets one on the top side of the chair and one on the bottom side (hope that makes sense). Then place a vac outlet directly opposite each of these. By having the wider mould. you can now place these on the laminate rather than on the sides.
This will give you a direct air path for the vacuum preventing the lock off we talked about.
If one side for some reason infuses faster than the other you can clamp that resin feed off until the other catches up. The same goes for the vac outlets.

One thing I would be worried about on the full size version would be release, that's a lot of surface area gripping the mould The thicker you go on the laminate the less flex you will have helping the release. I know this suggestion would mean more work making the mould but if you built in a very slight taper
(across the width) I doubt this would even be noticeable to the naked eye on the finished chair but would greatly help the release.

As for surface finish, soda blasting gives a rather nice matt/frosted finish to carbon. I use it to make chess boards. Mask off the squares with gaffer tape, soda blast, remove the gaffer tape and you have a contrasting gloss/matt chequer board pattern.
A bit of artistic masking and you could end up with some interesting effects.Smile

Hope that makes sense and helps a little, Warren

Carbon Copies Ltd
Edited 10 Years Ago by wozza
deagrateful
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Warren, luckily I have already made the full size pattern oversized on the width (by about 70mm) so hopefully that will be enough to run the lines as you've suggested and still have the desired chair width. Unfortunately there isn't a taper so I will be replying on a happy release after driving some air wedges in the gaps!

If for some reason the vac outlets had to be placed on the side rather than the face, would it make sense to add a bit of breather fabric over the edge (as well as the peel ply) to try and avoid the lock off?

I bought some MTI hose on a whim a few weeks ago (I was foreseeing possible difficulty with this infusion and thought it may have some use), could this possibly be a situation where careful resin uptake calculations and a hose that lets only the air through could come in handy some how?

Finally (so sorry to keep bombarding you with questions!), would you recommend the regular infusion mesh, or the easy flow mesh that I've been using thus far?

I'd love to see some pictures of your chess boards if you have any! Do you have a website? Mine is: krislamba.com

Many thanks once again BigGrin

Kris
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