XT135 Pinholes


Author
Message
Hanaldo
Hanaldo
Supreme Being (21K reputation)Supreme Being (21K reputation)Supreme Being (21K reputation)Supreme Being (21K reputation)Supreme Being (21K reputation)Supreme Being (21K reputation)Supreme Being (21K reputation)Supreme Being (21K reputation)Supreme Being (21K reputation)
Group: Forum Members
Posts: 2.5K, Visits: 28K
Hey guys,

Is anyone else using XT135 yet? How have your results been and what materials are you using for your patterns? 

I have been trying to make some moulds recently, and have used a bit more than 1m of the surface and 2m of the backing ply just making relatively smallish moulds (8 different moulds in total), but I haven't managed a single decent result yet. Every one of them comes out with pinholes, not all over the mould but enough to render them unusable. 

I am sure of my seal and I am sure of my oven and temp stability, so the one thing that I am unsure about is that I'm not using the XT135 with epoxy tooling board as being in Australia I don't have access to the S120 board sealer. So I have been making my patterns longhand by creating an initial plug in the conventional method of PU foam etc, then making a vinyl ester splash mould, and finally using that mould to infuse a new epoxy pattern. The epoxy patterns are great surface wise and cured up to 90 degrees for 24 hours, so shouldnt be any concerns there. Any Easy Composites staff reading this, are you aware of anyone else using the XT135 in this fashion? Can you see any reason this would cause issues? 


Does anyone have a solution for repairing these moulds to salvage them? The user guide states that they can be filled with a high temp epoxy gelcoat and sanded flat, but then the surface can't be polished up again and the S120 is needed again to bring the gloss back - obviously not an option for me. Has anyone tried flatting and polishing the surface of XT135, is it worth an attempt or no? Anyone have any other viable ideas for smoothly filling these pinholes? 

Will post pictures when I get a chance.
Reply
Matt (Staff)
Matt (Staff)
Composites Expert (Staff) (8.4K reputation)Composites Expert (Staff) (8.4K reputation)Composites Expert (Staff) (8.4K reputation)Composites Expert (Staff) (8.4K reputation)Composites Expert (Staff) (8.4K reputation)Composites Expert (Staff) (8.4K reputation)Composites Expert (Staff) (8.4K reputation)Composites Expert (Staff) (8.4K reputation)Composites Expert (Staff) (8.4K reputation)
Group: Forum Members
Posts: 680, Visits: 1.9K
Hi Guys,

Firstly, just to make sure but much of what I'll be reviewing here is included in the detailed processing guide for the XT135 system. I assume you've both read it but if not then you definitely should: XPREG XT135 Out of Autoclave Tooling Prepreg

Looking over your posts it's not an easy problem to diagnose in either case but I can certainly provide a little more information which might help to find the problem. In both of your cases, I don't think that the pattern (either the material it's made from or the way that it's finished) is the problem. The important thing with the pattern is simply to ensure:

  1. Made from a compatible material (ideally epoxy)
  2. Can take the 65'C initial cure temperature
  3. Non-porous (which is where the S120 comes in but it not essential, depending on the material used.)
  4. Prepared with a suitable release agent (again, that can take the 65'C initial cure).
  5. Under no circumstances use polyurethane board or polyurethane primers/finishes.
  6. Avoid vinylester (such as Uni-Mould) because compatibility of XT135 with vinylester is - as yet - untested.
I think in both of your cases you're using patterns that meet these criteria. - if not, start there.

So, having (probably) ruled out your patterns you're left with the following possible causes:
  1. Laminating technique
  2. Bagging technique
  3. Cure cycle
  4. Material condition
Of the above, #1 is the most likely cause of big pin holes and #4 is probably the most likely cause of tiny pin holes.

Laminating Technique
Laying up a prepreg mould is very different to laying up a component. You really need to be making extensive use of cut lines, joins and smaller panels of material that can move around slightly, relative to each other. If this is done correctly, it should very unlikely that you'll get a large cavity or void.

Bagging Technique
Much the same as the components themselves, making a void-free mould with high quality edges and corners would need good bagging technique. Martin (Hanaldo) you'll have covered this on the course and this is basically what we're talking about here - really ensuring the bag is down tight into every corner.

Cure Cycle
In the case of the XT135 tooling system, this part should be REALLY straightforward which is why I've not listed it as a likely cause of your problems. The *initial* cure of XT135 is simply a slow, low cure at 65'C. After that cure you'll be removing it from the pattern and the bag before its post-cure. At this stage, you can see the surface finish.  Because there's no ramp or dwell or other complexity, I would be very surprised if the cure temp is the problem.

Material Condition
The XT135 surface ply is much more sensitive to out-life issues than the backing. The reason for this is the glass scrim which performs best when it is only partially impregnated with resin. At room temperature the resin becomes more liquid and will start to wet out the glass scrim (we call this 'wicking'). This means that the material works at its very best when it is at its most fresh (with the least accumulated time out of the freezer. Although from a resin perspective there is still plenty of 'life' left in the resin (even after 4 weeks +) the wicking effect, particularly in warmer environments, does mean that this is one system that will perform better the fresher it is.

I know - as suppliers of the system - that we're not exactly impartial in this but I can honestly say that in general we're getting a lot of positive feedback on this product and that it continues to surprise us with just what we can do with it. As an example, you may have seen some photos on our Facebook and Instagram of the carbon fibre frame that a local composites wizz/bike builder is making. We've supplied him with materials in exchange for documenting his project but we've not done the work or really provided any more input than we would with any customer. He's now made all of the moulds for the frame (there's more than 10 individual moulds needed) and they have incredibly complicated and difficult geometry and accuracy required. They've all been made using XPREG XT135 tooling prepreg and the surface finish is completely flawless on every mould.

Please both have a think about some of the above points and see if anything sheds any more light on possible causes for the problems. I would be very happy to thrash this out some more until we have you both making perfect moulds too!

All the best, Matt


Matt Statham
Easy Composites / Carbon Mods - Technical Sales
GO

Merge Selected

Merge into selected topic...



Merge into merge target...



Merge into a specific topic ID...




Threaded View
Threaded View
Hanaldo - 7 Years Ago
cumberdale - 7 Years Ago
Hanaldo - 7 Years Ago
Matt (Staff) - 7 Years Ago
Hanaldo - 7 Years Ago
Matt (Staff) - 7 Years Ago
Hanaldo - 7 Years Ago
Matt (Staff) - 7 Years Ago
cumberdale - 7 Years Ago
Hanaldo - 7 Years Ago
Matt (Staff) - 7 Years Ago
Hanaldo - 7 Years Ago
Hanaldo - 7 Years Ago
Matt (Staff) - 7 Years Ago
cumberdale - 7 Years Ago
Matt (Staff) - 7 Years Ago
Hanaldo - 7 Years Ago
Hanaldo - 7 Years Ago
SHaas - 7 Years Ago
Hanaldo - 7 Years Ago
SHaas - 7 Years Ago
Hanaldo - 7 Years Ago
SHaas - 7 Years Ago
Hanaldo - 7 Years Ago
SHaas - 7 Years Ago
Hanaldo - 7 Years Ago
SHaas - 6 Years Ago
Hanaldo - 6 Years Ago
carbon man - 4 Years Ago
Warren (Staff) - 4 Years Ago

Similar Topics

Reading This Topic

Explore
Messages
Mentions
Search