Notes from a Beginner


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oneohtwo
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Now that I have finished my piece, I thought I'd share some of the things (and tips!) I discovered/learnt on the way, both from experience and from EC in the hope that it might help some others in my situation, starting out with no prior knowledge. A few things aren't readily apparent in the tutorials and I think you only find out from having a go... but obviously mistakes happen along the way! They also may be obvious to some, but hopefully can stop others making the same mistakes I did.

Before starting it should be reinforced that although the process is quite straightforward in terms of the steps undertaken, it is extremely unforgiving so expect to make mistakes. With that in mind certainly make sure you have the time available and have enough resources for buying more materials on top of the initial outlay for equipment (I'm not sure doing it on the cheap is super viable). I did it in a pretty confined space, so whilst not essential having a good work area is beneficial.

Additionally the EC technical help team are excellent, and always seem happy to help and chat through and issues no matter how big or small. They are a great one stop shop for all things composite and I sourced all my equipment and consumables from them, mostly because they appear to stock everything one needs in one place at a keen price, but it also seems a fair bargain if they are providing free technical assistance.

I'm no expert so I'm sure people can correct me if I am misinformed. Also I've covered all stages of the process I took, but am posting in Resin Infusion so it's all in the same place.

1. The Pattern Part
  • Firstly, and I can't stress this enough, get you plug/pattern/original part as good as you can make it. The original piece I was using was in pretty poor shape (rusty, nasty welds etc) and whilst I cleaned it up I made the mistake of thinking it would be easier to sort out the mould after. It was not. Whilst it is quite easy to sand the Uni-mould gel coat it was laborious and extremely time consuming, and took months of sorting before the mould was ready to use. After I ruined the first mould (more on that later) second time around I got the piece  sandblasted back to bare-metal and filled in all the holes, smoothed out welds, etc.
  • Be careful using paints you use to finish the part. The polyester/vinyl ester resins contain styrene solvents which attacks paints. I was a bit unlucky with this in that my first choice primer/paint/clearcoat (1k) combo seems like it would have been unaffected but I ran out of the primer mid way through (I was using a highbuild primer to fill in minor defects) and instead of waiting to order some more used another primer I had to hand. The styrene attacked this second primer, lifting the paint onto the mould surface and causing wrinkles in the gelcoat. This took a few weeks of removing the paint from the mould (gave a very good release though!) and sorting the wrinkles. Areas without the second primer were unaffected. However, I wouldn't risk using paints (or at least test them first), and Easy Composites do epoxy coatings for finishing patterns which would be better to use. 
  • If using the filleting wax for filling gaps on the part surface be aware that it can give quite a rough finish, especially if just smoothing out with your fingers. I did this on the first attempt and it took quite a lot of time sanding flat and filling in after I completed the mould. Second time I used body filler so I could get a very smooth finish  - although I understand these can also be affected by the styrene solvents in the resins. Mine were fine (I used P38/BigBoy) but worth consulting with EC.
  • Likewise when using flashtape to cover holes, it is worth cutting it neatly around the hole, as per the EC tutorial videos. I did it fairly roughly on the first mould, thinking I could just easily sand back but again this is just making more work for yourself later on. Note that every surface imperfection on the part will show on the mould. 


oneohtwo
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2. Uni-mould mould making

  • The polyester/vinylester resins all contain styrene solvents which are pretty potent (we all know that familiar fibreglass smell) and they get everywhere so make sure your workspace is isolated from habitable areas. I did my first attempt in my garage but this has a door to the rest of the house and even with this kept closed throughout the fumes crept in. In the end I did  most of the process outdoors because of this, which is less than ideal (weather, temp etc) - so ensure you have adequate workspace.
  • Set aside a weekend for doing this - I am sure you can do the whole process in a day (as with the EC tutorial they could come back to to gelcoat after 4 hours) but it can be time consuming, particularly waiting for the gel-coat to cure enough to move on to the next stage. Even taking into account doing two coats, the first coat was taking longer than the 4 hours to get to a workable point which wouldn't then leave a lot of time for laying down the subsequent layers (although I expect I was at a lower working temp).
  • I found it worth doing two layers of the gelcoat as it can get thin in places. Even having done two coats there were still areas where the coupling coat was visible beneath. It would be advantageous if your pattern wasn't black as this will help show up the thin bits.
  • EC Tech support confirmed the gel-coat is the slowest curing of the three resins, therefore I mixed at the higher end of the catalyst:resin scale, i.e. 2%
  • The coupling-coat cures the quickest, and as such can pose difficulties for working. I would catalyse this maybe even at 1%, but certainly not higher than 1.5% to give yourself enough working time. Also do not mix too much of this at a time and get it onto the mould surface as quickly as you can. As will all the resins it exotherms which accelerates the reaction and resin left in the pot will cure in a matter of minutes. It will also get extremely hot and smoke, so be aware of this. First attempt I did 500g in one go and lost most of it as it cured on me. Thereafter I did it in 200g batches and still had to work extremely quickly. I had a complicated part which limited how fast I could work, but even the coupling coat I got onto the part was becoming unworkable after just 5 mins or so, and this was catalysed at 1%, outside on a reasonably chilly, overcast summers day. With a simpler part it's probably easier.
  • The tooling resin sits between the other two in terms of curing time so is more forgiving than the coupling coat, but still do it in limited batches.
  • The CSM is fairly workable when wet, but only so far, so for a complicated part it will need cutting and overlapping as you go. if you can do this before you start that's preferable, but as it is harder to conform when dry I found this difficult. And if manipulating it a lot the fibres at the cut edge will release easily. Similarly if having to make a lot of cuts, things get messy.
  • I understand a brushing motion is recommended for applying the resin to the CSM, but I did tend to find this dragged the mat and pulled fibres loose in some places.
  • Getting the mat to adhere on vertical faces didn't always work and left voids after - but once cured these can be cut out and the voids filled with CSM and resin to correct the issue. This is very much worth doing.
  • The Uni-mould is relatively forgiving and mistakes can be rectified. In my first mould having lost all my coupling coat I had to leave the part for a week with coupling coat and CSM on half of it, with the other half of the the dry CSM left sticking out, and I was still able to get a serviceable mould out of it. The gelcoat is air-inhibited so retains some tack, even after a week, and applying a key with 400 grit w+d still allowed the couping coat to bond. I did have some issues as a result though, which required filling in with more gelcoat later.

Edited 4 Years Ago by oneohtwo
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3. Vacuum Infusion
  • The Easy-lease chemical release agent works well, as advertised, but be aware if using wax (as per the tutorial video) the wax must go on afterwards. I made the mistake of thinking if they could be used together it didn't matter the order, but applying the wax first interferes with the Easy-lease and the whole thing breaks down. Cue one ruined mould where the resin adhered. Second time around I used the easy-lease on it's on and it was absolutely fine, so I would recommend this.
  • The knitted flow mesh really is an excellent product and for a complicated part is highly recommended. It has all lot more give and stretch the the standard mesh so really gets into tight corners and odd radius bends where the usual mesh may bridge - only thing to be aware is that it is thicker and fills with the resin so is harder to remove - it does get quite stiff. You also need to apply release film (bread wrap) between it and the peel ply which is a bit of a faff.
  • Cutting and overlapping peel ply for a complicated part is worth considering to help avoid bridging although you do get an edge at the overlap in the final part. I also found that at the edge fibres from the peel ply tended to get stuck in the part.
  • I found the 210gsm mat quite difficult to work with compared to the heavier weights for a more overly contoured part, particularly in a narrow channel section - it didn't have as much give, or drape as well, and as it is one layer of weave could open up if not careful. I initially chose it to help avoid bridging, but it made it much harder. It would lift in one area as another was pushed down (using the fusionfix) and generally didn't conform. I went through several rounds of having to open the vacuum bag and peel the whole stack up after I found the 210 mat had bridged in tight corners. For the final part I went with the 450 as the top layer and was much easier. Others may not have this issue, however, and I can see for a relatively straightforward part the 210 would be fine.
  • If the part is small enough consider envelope bagging the whole part rather than just applying the bagging film on one side. 2 reasons - a) it is potentially a bit simpler as it doesn't require pleats and you only have tape at the ends to leak and b) If the mould is a bit ropey (as my first one was) you can get leaks through the mould which are almost impossible to find and fix. I spent weeks searching in vain for tiny leaks, and in the end just bagged the whole thing. The rough surface on the back of the mould could pierce the vacuum bag so I laid down two layers of peel ply on the back and spent some time taping over the pointier areas. Downsides as far as I can see is that resin escapes around the back of the mould, and the vacuum bag can get caught up around the back of the mould, overstretching and tearing.
  • It is perfectly fine to leave the pump running whilst the epoxy hardens. There seemed to be slightly conflicting info on whether you should or not, and I was a bit confused. Having spoken to EC tech support, their line is that if you have a perfect vacuum (or as near to as makes no difference), i.e. you see no change on the vacuum drop test and the vacuum is going to be maintained for the duration then you just don't need to leave the pump running and can clamp off. However, you can still leave the pump running if you'd prefer, or if there are some minor leaks that you cannot find - as long as your vacuum gauge is reading a good vacuum. They mentioned that on a commercial scale it is normal to leave the pump running - as I understand it for larger projects it's tricky to find and fix all leaks so you need to have that constant vacuum. This is just the state of play currently. They did mention in their experience leaving the vacuum running seemed more likely to leave pinholes and clamping off the vacuum gave a smoother finish (allowing a little extra resin into the stack after clamping off), so bare that in mind. In the end I got fed up of weeks of chasing leaks so I left the pump running, just so I could perform the infusion, and it worked well. I used a 50/50 fast/medium hardener ratio and was able to turn off the pump after about 6 hrs when the resin had gelled. The EC pump is designed for continuous running under vacuum, and whilst it got a little hot there was no issue. The pump won't draw extra resin out of the stack particularly because once the resin feed is clamped off the pressure inside the stack and externally is equalised and it settles down, but it will continue to draw a bit of air out of the stack. A small amount of resin was drawn up the vacuum line but it didn't reach the catch pot.
  • I found a resin break quite helpful for slightly slowing the infusion process - with my first attempt without a break the resin reached the vacuum line quite quickly and a lot of areas were left with air bubbles, voids etc. It helps degas the resin within the stack and allows a bit more to be drawn in. Controlling the flow of resin into the stack using the line clamps is something to be mindful of, you can slow the resin into the stack, which may hep some areas to fully wet through and prevent the resin reaching the vacuum too quickly, as well as helping draw more air out. There is clearly a bit of art to this and I can't profess to have any real knowledge of how to control this throughout the infusion though. I think on my final run I may have been going too slowly, some areas were a bit lean and I lost a bit of pot time (resin started exotherming) but I don't really know what the result would be had I gone faster, in order to compare. When to exactly clamp off the resin feed is a bit trial and error again, I think it's just a judgement call on the situation -  I ended up with no choice as the resin in my pot was rapidly curing.
  • To degas or not to degas? I found degassing a bit of a game changer. As EC mention in the tutorials and advice you don't necessarily need to degas (thus avoiding the extra expense of a chamber) as the resin will be degassed during the infusion process anyway; however, for this I think the stack needs to be near enough perfect (absolutely no bridging at all) and relatively large to give time for all the gas to be drawn out. If any bridging is present (and I found it extremely difficult to avoid - despite my best efforts spending a few hours getting the bag into the corners I still had some) these areas will not be under any pressure so air in the resin will find it's way there and get trapped. For the beginner like me with a complicated part, degassing could be the difference between a successful infusion and a ruined part. Degassing just removed that additional risk - as it transpired I can see I have some slightly thicker resin areas (resin is cloudy) where I did have some bridging so if I hadn't degassed I could still be going at it. It was therefore worth the additional expense for me. Some people may disagree, and for a simpler part where you can be assured of no bridging it may be an unnecessary step. 
  • Be mindful of pot time. Degassing took about 10-12 mins, and then I had completed about 30-45 mins of infusion when the resin in my pot started curing with a 50/50 fast/slow hardener mix. There was about 200-300g left in my pot, but the part had fully infused and resin had reached the vacuum line so it was largely OK. I had been a bit conservative in my resin quantity calculation, but was worried some of the thicker areas hadn't fully infused. In the end a couple of small areas were a bit lean - interestingly near the resin feed line which I had thought had got a bit rich. I had  left the pot for 10 mins to self degas on previous attempts (as in the tutorial vids), but there were probably some vagaries in temperature that caused a faster reaction this time. 
  • Small lean areas/voids can be filled in with resin after so is not necessarily game over. 
  • Do not attempt to demould too soon. On my first attempt I tried after 24 hrs which is the recommended time; however this was in sub-optimum temperatures (garage) and with a 100% slow hardener so I was a bit early and the layers of carbon fibre were delaminating, even though it all felt hard. As a rough guide I subsequently used was to bend the feed line full of hardened resin - if it bends easily with no snap, and is a bit elastic  I don't think the resin is cured enough. If on the other hand it simply "snaps" with a clean break I think it is Ok to try. In the end I left my part about 48 hours even with 50/50 fast/slow hardener and a good room temperature just to be on the safe side.
  • I had an odd issue with my mould where it didn't seem like the gelcoat had fully cured on the flanges - as a precaution and on the advice of Hanaldo on here, I put down flash tape all around the flange. This worked very well and I would be tempted to do the same even without the gelcoat issue as, although a bit time consuming, it gave an excellent release. The tape is easy to peel up and give an edge from which you can get the tools in. Without the tape on my first attempt it was difficult to find an edge to get the tools in to split the mould without damaging it.
I think it's all the bits and pieces I picked up. Apologies for the length, it turned out a bit longer than expected - if too long feel free to split up into other areas of the forum. I split it into three posts to hopefully make it more digestible, but it is a bit of a long read. And if anything I've written is wrong, or controversial please let me know and I will edit. Last thing I want to do is spread misinformation, so I hope it's taken in the spirit intended.
Hopefully it might be of help to someone!

Edited 4 Years Ago by oneohtwo
Lester Populaire
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oneohtwo - 12/12/2020 10:18:36 PM
  • The advice from EC was that matching the thickness of the original part (if steel) in carbon fibre was generally recommended to achieve similar strength and stiffness (it can be seen that the strength and stiffness (E) of both materials are similar, accounting for grade of steel and quality of composite). The rule of thumb was that the weight of cloth in gsm / 1000 gives you the thickness in mm. So for 450 cloth gives 0.45mm roughly.

I quickly wanted to expand on this as this is BS which i see often enough tho. The truth is that is way more complicated than that. If you look at the stiffness of carbon vs steel then yes, very similar modulus. However, as about 50% of your laminate is resin which has a very low modulus you can about half the modulus of the carbon. Meaning that for a purely unidirectional laminate you need twice the thickness to get the same stiffness. If you have a quasi isotropic laminate then your Young's modulus is lower than aluminum (50 to 60 GPa vs 70 for Al).

This is only in plane stiffness which is not necessarily what you need for your part and the part you are copying maybe has this thickness for reasons other than pure strength or stiffness requirements. Maybe denting, manufacturing (drawing, welding, ... ) or others. Maybe your part works mostly in torsion so a quasi isotropic laminate does not make sense.

And then strength is a whole other can of worms.

I think it is just stupidly dangerous when people just start making structural parts based on this kind of simplified assumptions.

oneohtwo
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Hmmm ,yes it's a fair point - and I wouldn't advocate making structural parts from carbon, I should have been clear about this, and I think it is on this basis that EC must recommend matching the thickness of carbon to steel. I will remove that section to avoid misdirection. 
Hanaldo
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Its just a rule of thumb to give people some guidance on where to start with cosmetic panels, not everything needs proper engineering. If you're making a new set of fenders or some other direct replacement panel for your car, which is what most people here are doing, matching the thickness of the metal is going to give you a pretty good starting point. From there you need experience and understanding to know how certain layup are going to perform, and youre only going to get that by laying up some panels. So having some hint of where to start isn't a bad thing.

Yes, it is technically not correct. And it is a bad way to build composites if you are going beyond cosmetic panels, and dangerous if you are getting into critical structural panels without any other knowledge or experience of how that panel is going to perform. But it works just fine for what most people here are doing, and considering the topic title is 'Notes from a Beginner' - I dont think it needs to be removed.
Edited 4 Years Ago by Hanaldo
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Hanaldo - 12/21/2020 12:10:42 AM
Its just a rule of thumb to give people some guidance on where to start with cosmetic panels, not everything needs proper engineering. If you're making a new set of fenders or some other direct replacement panel for your car, which is what most people here are doing, matching the thickness of the metal is going to give you a pretty good starting point. From there you need experience and understanding to know how certain layup are going to perform, and youre only going to get that by laying up some panels. So having some hint of where to start isn't a bad thing.

Yes, it is technically not correct. And it is a bad way to build composites if you are going beyond cosmetic panels, and dangerous if you are getting into critical structural panels without any other knowledge or experience of how that panel is going to perform. But it works just fine for what most people here are doing, and considering the topic title is 'Notes from a Beginner' - I dont think it needs to be removed.


How about replacing a fiberglass part with carbon? Smile Trying to figure out how many layers I need for my hood.

Hanaldo
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Depends on the part and how the fibreglass part was made. But in general, you could probably get away with 1/5th of the thickness.
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