What do I need to make a complete set of custom carbon fibre panels for my project car?


What do I need to make a complete set of custom carbon fibre panels for my project car?
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garyH
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Hi,

Basically im wanting to build a crazy v8 mk2 mr2 with custom body kit, front and rear clam type boot/bonnet, slightly lengthened and a tad wider.. can you advice me on the type of carbon fibre would be best suited for looks and light weight? how much carbon fibre would be needed to do a pretty much an entire outer shell? also wanting to custom engine parts / inlet etc and a carbon dash... i've done alot with fibre glass but i think my project needs to be carbon as im wanting to show it on completion, advice on materials and prices would be great.

Thanks

Gary
Edited 12 Years Ago by garyH
Matt (Staff)
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OK, this is a big project with a lot involved but I’ll try to cover it as best as I can. If you go ahead and buy these materials (or something similar) from us then we’d be only too happy to provide more detailed information on each step, as you go.

Getting the Pattern Right

To make your own replacement carbon fibre body panels the first thing you’ll need is the ‘pattern’ of the parts. As you probably know the pattern is the male form of the part, exactly as you want the finished part to be (even though it can be made out of just about anything). Given that you’re starting with an MR2 but want to modify it then the obvious thing is to just start using foam (normally PU foam) and bodyfiller to alter the styling or proportions of the existing bodywork until you’ve got it to the shape you want the new body kit to be. Modifying the existing panels in this way is going to be a messy process and not really reversible without a lot of work.

Once you’ve got the shape how you want it, you’ll need to get the finish right too before you’re ready to pull moulds off the pattern. We would strongly recommend using a 2-pack (2k) filler primer sprayed through a gun. These are the primers that bodyshops use when they’ve done repairs – they’re high-build (so the fill any texture in the surface) and are very polish-able when they’re cured. You may well need to spray a couple of thick coats, then flat the surface, then spray again (and maybe flat and spray yet again) until you get the new contours really smooth (no ‘wobble’) and glossy. Given the size of the panels you’re going to be making, I recommend investing in a random orbit palm sander like the Mirka Ceros (an amazing bit of kit) because by hand you’re probably looking at hundreds of hours of flatting and polishing.

Once you’ve got the pattern (i.e. your modified body panels) looking really nice, you’re ready to take moulds off them…

Making Moulds of Car Body Panels

Car body panels, particularly a whole car’s worth, represent a lot of moulds and are in themselves quite large moulds. This means that you need a tooling system (a mould making system) that’s cost effective and zero shrink (normal polyester resin and chopped strand mat will shrink, particularly on larger moulds, which means the replacement panels you make using them would not fit back on the car properly). Our system for making large, zero shrink moulds is called Uni-Mould. Not only is it cost effective, it’s also designed to be compatible with any resin system meaning that once you’ve made the moulds, you could use them to make top end carbon fibre/epoxy parts or low-end csm/polyester panels.

You would need to add flanges to all of the panels. There are various ways to do this but probably the most common is bendy-board (thin MDF with lots of grooves in one side) or fibreboard (like the bottom of the drawers in cheap furniture) which are fixed in place with a hot-melt glue gun and then made ‘none-stick’ using masking tape with mould release wax on the masking tape.

To give you a really rough idea about how much Uni-Mould you would need to make a whole set of moulds for a car, I would think it would be something like 100kgs of Uni-Mould Tooling Resin, 25kgs of Uni-Mould Coupling Coat and 10kg of Uni-Mould Tooling Gel Coat. In addition you’d want about 10kgs of 150g CSM (Chopped Strand Mat) and 35kg of 450g CSM.

Here's links to the materials used in the Uni-Mould system:

Uni-Mould Tooling Gel Coat
Uni-Mould Coupling Coat
Uni-Mould Tooling Resin

Before pulling the mould, you would obviously prepare the surface of the pattern panels with a suitable release agent. Our Easy-Lease would work well or you could use wax and PVA.

There are some specific steps to follow when using the Uni-Mould system but most of the process is just like normal fibre-glassing. If you want to read up in advance then take a look at the Introduction and Application guide for the system.

Making the Replacement Carbon Fibre Car Body Panels

Now you get to the fun part, making the carbon fibre replacement panels. For panels this size where you’re after a show quality finish and want them to be as strong and light as possible then you really only have one choice for making them and that is to use a process known as resin infusion. In this process the moulds (made from Uni-Mould as described in the previous section) are prepared with a chemical release agent before carbon fibre fabric is laid dry into the mould (along with any other reinforcement that are being used such as glass or Kevlar and any core materials) and then the whole mould is enclosed in a special vacuum bag. The bag is connected to a vacuum pump and the pump sucks all of the air out of the bag, pressing the carbon and other reinforcements hard against the mould’s surface.

Once this has been done a special ‘infusion’ epoxy resin is allowed to be sucked into the mould and infuses through the reinforcement, wetting it as it goes. The resin supply is then clamped off and in many instance the pump is clamped off to and can be switched off. Once the panel has cured it can be removed from the mould. If the mould has a smooth, glossy surface then the part will have exactly the same smooth glossy surface. Resin infused panels will pretty much be as strong and light as any carbon fibre part could be with no trapped air-bubbles and no voids or defects.

To get a good understanding of the resin infusion process, please take a look at the video for our Resin Infusion Starter Kit which shows us making a large carbon fibre bonnet scoop using this technique. Although whole body panels are larger than the scoop we make in the video, the process would be exactly the same and the vacuum pump we include in the kit would be more than adequate for any size car panel.

The reinforcement for the panels themselves could be almost any combination of carbon, Kevlar and core material, depending on how strong or how light you want the finished panels to be. For race car parts we sometimes only use 1 layer of 200g and 1 layer of 450g. This makes for a carbon panel only 0.75mm thick, clearly this is very thin (and so very light) but it certainly wouldn’t be enough for daily use.

A really nice combination for body panels (which I know we supply to many companies making such parts) is a single layer of 200g carbon, a single layer of 3mm Soric SF core material and then a final layer of 200g carbon on the inside to balance the laminate (make is symmetrical). This layup has two advantages, one is that the 3.5mm overall thickness seems to be a nice thickness for a body panel, proving to be plenty strong enough and yet, because the core is low density, very light. The other advantage of using Soric is that it acts as an internal flow media for the resin infusion process meaning that you don’t need peel ply or infusion mesh – instead the resin runs through the Soric and wets out the surrounding carbon.

To give you an idea of costings on the panels themselves, you’d be using a combination of 1m wide, 1.25m wide and possible (in places) 1.5m wide carbon cloth. The classic fabric for the surface of your moulds is 200g 2/2 twill. There’s some links to those fabrics below:

1m Wide 200g 2/2 Twill Carbon Fibre Fabric
1.25m Wide 200g 2/2 Twill Carbon Fibre Fabric
1.5m Wide 200g 2/2 Twill Carbon Fibre Fabric


If you went with the layup I’ve suggested (200g carbon, 3mm Soric SF, 200g carbon) then you’d need 2sqm of carbon cloth and 1sqm of Soric for every 1sqm of body panel you’ll be making. If we have a wild guess at 15m sqm of body panel on your car then you’re talking 30sqm of 2/2 twill, 15m of Soric SF and 21kg of IN2 Epoxy Infusion Resin in the finished panels. Given waste and the way the different shapes will come out of the material I think you’d need to consider at least 30kgs of infusion resin, 20m of Soric SF and up to 40sqm of carbon fibre cloth.

It’s a considerably investment but then, including purchasing all of the mould materials, vacuum equipment and materials to make the parts you’re still going to be looking at considerably less than the cost of purchasing those parts and they’re likely to be much stronger and lighter (and of course made to your unique shape) than anything you could buy.

I hope this helps and look forward to supplying you.

Matt Statham
Easy Composites / Carbon Mods - Technical Sales
garyH
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Thanks for getting back to me.. tbh im still abit confused to how much stuff i will need.  would you be able to create a basket / wish listof everything i will need for overall price, including for making moulds.. iwant to have a rough idea of how much it will be for all materials involvedboth body and moulds / resins etc... i know it is a lot to ask but ive neverbought carbon fibre before and never done a project to this scale...
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Hi Gary,

OK, here’s a complete list of materials, equipment and supplies you would need from start to finish to modify your existing car panels, finish them (to make your pattern), take moulds from them and then make a complete set of carbon fibre panels for your car. I don’t know the exact dimensions of your car and even if I did there’s still a lot of guesswork around what size pieces of carbon fabric would be required for the different panels but I’ve done my best…

List of materials for modifying your body panels:

1.22m x 2.44m (8’ x 4’) block of low density PU foam (100mm thick) - £153.75
Maybe 10-20 tubs of polyester bodyfiller (we don’t sell this but any bodyshop supplier will)           
5L 2K filler primer paint (we don’t sell this but any car paint supplier will)   
Lots of abrasive paper (we don’t sell the coarser grits but a bodyshop supplier will)
A random orbit palm sander and sanding pads
A polishing machine with mops
Polishing compound

List of materials for making moulds for a complete set of car body panels:

300g Tin of Number 8 Mould Release Wax - £12.50
1L PVA Mould Release Agent - £6.55
100kgs Uni-Mould Tooling Resin - £735.00
25kgs Uni-Mould Coupling Coat - £159.60
10kgs Uni-Mould Tooling Gel Coat - £31.50
33kgs 450gsm Chopped Strand Mat - £105.00
10kgs 150gsm Chopped Strand Mat - £75.00
75mm Plastic Finned Roller - £5.20
Box of 100 Nitrile Gloves - £4.99
5L Acetone - £10.00
Box of 12 3” Laminating Brushes - £16.47

COMPLETE COST FOR THE MOULDS: £1062.21

List of equipment for manufacturing a complete set of car body panels:

Composites Vacuum Pump - £169.95
Professional Resin Infusion Catch-Pot - £79.95
30m Coil Clear PVC Vacuum Hose - £21.95
4x Infusion Line Clamps - £18.00
4x Infusion Silicone Connectors - £13.00
4x 10m Pack of Infusion Spiral - £14.00
5m Breather Cloth - £7.50
100m Roll Vacuum Bagging Film - £188.50
20roll box of Vacuuum Bagging Gum Tape - £59.49

COMPLETE COST FOR THE EQUIPMENT AND CONSUMABLES: £572.34


List of materials for manufacturing a complete set of car body panels:

1L Easy-Lease Chemical Release Agent - £23.75
5m  1.5m Wide Carbon Fibre Cloth - £180.00
25m 1m Wide Carbon Fibre Cloth - £487.50
30m Lantor Soric SF 3mm - £294.90
31kgs of IN2 Epoxy Infusion Resin - £362.48

COMPLETE COST FOR THE MATERIALS TO BUILD THE BODY PANELS: £1348.63


I really hope that's pretty clear. With most of what's listed above you do need to check the quantities against your project but to my best ability, that's what you'd need to do the whole car from start to finish.

Matt Statham
Easy Composites / Carbon Mods - Technical Sales
Edited 13 Years Ago by Matt (Staff)
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Looking forward to seeing some pics on this for sure!

Have you got started yet?



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Sir-

Thanks for all the time you took to post such a detailed response and provide a bill of materials as well. 

I am considering a similar project.  No doubt this is a significant investment of time and money, but worth it in the end if conditions permit.  I have done a fair amount of research on this forum, other forums, your instructional videos, etc.  I have a masters-level Mechanical Engineering background so understand conceptually what is involved at just about every level (in terms of material properties, chemical interactions, proper mould design, etc.).  Like the original poster, my practical experience is rather limited, and never for a part that needed to be structural... and cosmetic... and large. 

After reviewing all the information at hand, I have a few technical questions about the process that will probably gnaw at me until I've got them sorted in my head (I'm the type to "build" something mentally about a hundred times before I ever buy materials and start construction):

1) For a large and/or complex shape like a one-piece car nose, I would imagine that a multi-part mould may be necessary.  Given that the resin infusion technique provides the best shot for a relative newbie like me to produce a cosmetically-presentable, lightweight, structurally sound part if all instructions are carefully followed, how does one handle the parting lines when doing resin infusion?  Specifically, assuming a multi-part mould with a well-designed and secured parting line:

        a)  How do you make the parting lines vacuum tight?  Sealant tape on the flange?  Mould a channel for sealant tape? 

        b)  How do you maintain the cosmetic integrity of the part?  Fill the parting line gap on the mould side with gelcoat and polish it flawless (a solution for production of only a very few number of parts... i.e. ONE or maybe two, since it would obviously crack away as soon as you separated the mould and would have to be redone every time)?  Fill it with filleting wax or sealant tape or ???? and doing the corrective work on the part itself to sand down the extra resin?

2) For a piece like a one-piece car nose done in exposed (cosmetically visible) CF, it is too complex to be formed from a flat sheet without cutting or some other form of pre-forming, and is also too wide to be covered by a single width.  I'd like to hear your thoughts on the ideas below:

        a)  Can two sheets of CF be joined together with a simple sewing operation in a presentable way without the need for industrial equipment?  For example, laying two 1.5m sheets on top of each other and running the edge through a sewing machine to get an ~3m wide cloth.  How viable is this from a cosmetic perspective?  If making a CF-Soric-CF sandwich, one would obviously want to back any seams with reinforcement or perhaps do a full second layer behind the cosmetically presentable one.

        b)  If sewing CF to meet size requirements is possible, could this concept be extended to sewing a full pre-formed 3D pattern?  I.e., draping paper over the plug, making cut lines and folds in order to then transfer that to a piece of CF fabric to be cut out and pre-sewn into a 3D shape loosely conforming to the mould shape?  What is your experience with the challenges and resulting finished product quality associated with this approach?

Thanks in advance for sharing your expertise with me and the rest of the community!

Best wishes,

-Jon
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Hi Jon,

It's good to have you on board. Few projects this size get past the planning stage but when they have, like Andy's rear clip for his Noble, they can go really well and be very rewarding projects. Answers to your questions as follows:

a)  How do you make the parting lines vacuum tight?  Sealant tape on the flange?  Mould a channel for sealant tape? 


If you're vacuum bagging against the mould's flange (i.e. not envelope bagging the whole thing) then one technique for sealing the flanges is to use a small bead of silicone sealant near the edge of the flange where the moulds will come together. Silicone sealant will make an airtight seal but won't prevent you from separating the two moulds when it's time to de-mould the part. It will peel off the moulds easily ready to use the next time.

The other alternative is to spray a gelcoat surface onto the inside of your moulds, once they're fixed together. The gelcoat itself will for an airtight seal over the seam. If you do this, use a special gelcoat like our GC50 Epoxy Compatible Polyester Gelcoat

b)  How do you maintain the cosmetic integrity of the part?  Fill the parting line gap on the mould side with gelcoat and polish it flawless (a solution for production of only a very few number of parts... i.e. ONE or maybe two, since it would obviously crack away as soon as you separated the mould and would have to be redone every time)?  Fill it with filleting wax or sealant tape or ???? and doing the corrective work on the part itself to sand down the extra resin?


Almost always, if you are making a part as large as a multi-mould car panel then generally you would be painting it afterwards either with coloured paint or with a clear 2k lacquer/clear coat, meaning that the flash lines where the moulds have come together are not a problem. You would flat them before painting and then just paint over them whereby they would disappear. Alternatively, if you've gelcoated your part then you should just be able to flat the flash line away and polish the seam to be left with no visible seam.

a) Can two sheets of CF be joined together with a simple sewing operation in a presentable way without the need for industrial equipment? For example, laying two 1.5m sheets on top of each other and running the edge through a sewing machine to get an ~3m wide cloth. How viable is this from a cosmetic perspective? If making a CF-Soric-CF sandwich, one would obviously want to back any seams with reinforcement or perhaps do a full second layer behind the cosmetically presentable one.


No, you can't stitch carbon fibre together. Where possible you avoid having a join-line. If you need to have a join-line (i.e. widths over 1.5m or when the contours of the mould require relief cuts) then we would suggest using ProFinish Carbon Fibre so that you have have really neat cut-lines. ProFinish carbon fibre has a binder on the back to hold it together well meaning it's much less likely to distort and it won't fray at all on cut lines. Using this material it's possible to arrange a 'V' shape stright down the middle of a panel (like you would see on a Pagani Zonda for example).

b)  If sewing CF to meet size requirements is possible, could this concept be extended to sewing a full pre-formed 3D pattern?  I.e., draping paper over the plug, making cut lines and folds in order to then transfer that to a piece of CF fabric to be cut out and pre-sewn into a 3D shape loosely conforming to the mould shape?  What is your experience with the challenges and resulting finished product quality associated with this approach?


As above; you can't (successfully) stitch carbon fibre together.

I hope this helps and look forward to working with you.

--Matt

Matt Statham
Easy Composites / Carbon Mods - Technical Sales
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Matt-

Thanks so much for your reply and for sharing your expertise. 

This is indeed an ambitious project to say the least, but we'll see if I'm able to put some traction to it once the project gets to that stage (which is probably a couple years away if I'm lucky!). 

Conceptually it seems like I'm trying to "have my cake and eat it too" by trying to mould a large, complex part that has the CF exposed for cosmetic reasons.  Exposed CF plus relatively simple part (car hood, trunk lid, etc) = doable if shape and size/contours permit.  Large, complex, painted part = doable because the underlying fiber structure with all the cosmetically "ugly" relief cuts and join lines would be painted or gelcoated over. 

If I understand you correctly, the multi-part mould is not really a "show stopper" for cosmetically perfect exposed CF parts... the mould parts are sealed as you describe below (the UV-resistant clear gelcoat sounds like a good choice since the tackiness would aid in positioning the first layer of fabric), then after de-moulding the gelcoat flash lines are flatted/polished, then the final part is painted with lacquer / clear-coat.  Voila, no evidence of the parting line.

Sounds like the biggest obstacle to pulling off what I'm envisioning is the complexity of the part.  Even with ProFinish, laying up the outermost layer of CF in a large mould like a single piece nose or rear clip while keeping the relief cuts cosmetically acceptable sounds like it may be a bridge too far.  Also, since it appears only the 2x2 twill is available in ProFinish, that limits my options cosmetically.  I presume that the ProFinish process is proprietary and/or not able to be applied to dry CF by an end-user?  There are some pretty neat "patterned" CF fabrics out there now that would make a great "rally stripe" on an exposed CF panel!

Thanks again for the assistance,

-Jon
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thanks to all of you for these great questions and answers. I have no degrees in these fields. I am considered an old hick around here and when I want or need something i just go build it. from new tools to new toys and have another project in mind. all of your talks here have helped me to grasp concepts and processes and will save me a whole lot of time and money on mistakes. thanks again to you all, Nate
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HI,

On the movi
e you use GC50 Compatible Epoxy Polyester Gelcoat. What to use to  activate it to stuck
CF to the surface.

Then on the bottom of the bonnet to use another spray  stuck CF perfectly to the surface. What is spreyyou useing?


Thank you very much
and best regards

Edited 12 Years Ago by Sawrel
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