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Matt (Staff)
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Steve's material suggestion looks spot on. I would probably also suggest that - given the relative complexity of the mould - you use a combination of our EMP160 paste, along with conventional laminating resin and glass for the reinforcement. What you can do is use the paste on the inside of all the corners of the mould, filling in the detail and creating a much smoother profile. You can then use the resin and glass (woven glass could be used at this stage) to lay over the paste and add the main strength to the mould. This is a combination that we'll be featuring in an upcoming tutorial where we undertake a very complex mould using a hand layup from (a Kawasaki motorcycle front fairing). The paste and resin can all be used 'wet-on-wet'. For a hand-layup process suitable for making prepreg parts, here's the full shopping list: Setting up your barriers (for the split): Polypropylene Plastic SheetFilleting WaxPreparing the pattern (release agent): Easy-Lease Chemical Release Agent#8 Mould Release WaxLaminating the mould: EG160 High Temperature Epoxy Tooling GelcoatEMP160 Epoxy Moulding PasteEL160 High Temperature Tooling ResinChoice of: 300gsm Powder Bound Chopped Strand Mat or/ 280gsm Woven Glass Cloth
Matt StathamEasy Composites / Carbon Mods - Technical Sales
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Steve Broad
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Group: Forum Members
Posts: 408,
Visits: 4.1K
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+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+xHi I have been looking at this Air Box and trying to figure out how I can Vaccum Bag ??? to me looks impossible, so any help appreciated, Regards DM Hi There, Actually, I think you might be overthinking it. Unless there's something I'm missing - I'm assuming that the bottom face which we can't see it completely open - The the bag would actually be very simple, it would just need to also be very large (like more than twice the size of the part). I can't see the mould so I don't know if you're planning to envelope bag or tape to the mould flange but the principle would be the same either way. If the bag was large enough you could just feed two 'socks' of bag into the inlet tubes and then would blank off at the mouth of the tubes (again, I can't see the mould but I assume the mould too blanks off at the mouth of these inlet tubes). As Steve has posted we also don't know what the rectangle is but I'm assuming it's just a cuboid shaped recess which is fully closed off, in which case you could just bag around this using the huge excesses of bag I'm suggesting again too. If you were envelope bagging then just imagine an absolutely massive bag with the part and mould inside and the bag sealed all around. When you do this you can picture yourself just stuffing bag into those two inlets (as though you'd fashioned some tube shapes from the big bag and fed them into these inlets) and then and the rest into the main area. I hope this helps but if I've missed something then let me know! Hi Matt, Thanks, as yet I have not made the Mould ( The Pic I got Online) so just trying to figure out how to go about it, this is just to top part of the air box as the bottom rectangular portion is completely open as the Air Filter sits between the top and bottom portion, also the 2 round tube sections are completely open, and also the ends of the tubes have quite a hefty Flange which is used to bolt to the MAF's ?/ so how would I go about these flanges as well, again I will enclose 2 more pics, and thanks for all your help, I will get to make some CF parts very very soon with your help,Regards DM Well, the inlet tubes would have been blanked off in the mould and then cut open when the part is trimmed. Knowing that will probably change how you think about the bagging. As for the flanges, they are quite likely to be separate components that are bonded on afterwards but they don't have to be. I can't really see from the images but you could either make them as separate parts or set up removable barriers on the mould to form these flanges. Hi Matt, Looking at Steve's pic of his mould with both ends open, so looks like he just stuffed one end of his bag through one end of his mould and out the other end, and then pulled the other end of his bag over his mould and back to same end and sealed it there,?? is that correct, as my Airbox is very similar only difference is I have 3 openings, so is there any need for me to Blanks off the round open ends of mine, again thanks, Regards DM The blanking off was not really to make the bagging easier or possible (it's both of these things with or without the blanking), I was only pointing out that blanking off these opening on the moulding would be quite a normal way to make the mould (which you've not done yet). There's a lot of posts and input on this now so I'll try not to confuse matters any more for you. There is no problem bagging the shape you want to bag, with or without blanking off some of the inlets and as Hanaldo has pointed out I think we've covered well the basic principle of bagging a tubular shape in our airbox video where you can see that the principle would be the same whether you have one, two or more openings. Make your mould with confidence, when you get to the bagging stage, it will be do-able! Hi Matt/ Steve, and everyone else who advised, Yes I know you are all right, it is only me having to understand the process, as being an older Fiberglasser and over the years have had a few Major blunders where what could go wrong went wrong like trapped Moldings etc, so again Thanks for all the advise and help, I will bite the bullet very soon, Regards DM Trapped moulds, been there and got the relevant T-Shirt :-) Hi Steve and matt, I am almost ready to start, rather than Moulding the Air Box from my 458 I have just bought one from Ebay so I can still use my car, so first question how would you go about moulding it ?? as far as I can judge it will have to be a two part mould so split down the middle ?, so what material do I need to make my Mould, I will do all hand wet layup air dry/cure, and good enough to use with prepreg and an oven later on if all works out, I am thinking same materials as you used in your EC Video of the Car Bonnet, and if and when I get a good Mould made then the most difficult bit will be getting the two round Flanges laid up should I use the same Paste/Putty your EC Video of the Louvre mould used, and should I also use it on the Mould Flanges, so again any help very much appreciated, Regards DM Make sure you use high temp resin (eg easycomposites' EL160) and gel coat (EG160). Also use a fibreglass woven matt that has no chemical binders. The split, IMO, will have to be through the long axis so the tubes form half pipes.  What do the flanges attach to? One option would be to remove the flanges and bond them to the new carbon box. Just a thought, without actually having the item in my hand it is difficult to be definite on how I would do it. If you can manage to make the mould incorporating the flanges (both circular and flat) then this is by far the best option as it keeps your OE box in one piece :-) To make sure that you get an accurate mould of the flanges I would use EMP160 moulding paste in these areas as this can be pushed on to the gel coat, making sure it is tight into the corners. The fibgreglass mat has a tendency to creep away from tight internal corners (unless you vacuum bag it).
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Eddie Walsh
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Group: Forum Members
Posts: 52,
Visits: 294
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+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+xHi I have been looking at this Air Box and trying to figure out how I can Vaccum Bag ??? to me looks impossible, so any help appreciated, Regards DM Hi There, Actually, I think you might be overthinking it. Unless there's something I'm missing - I'm assuming that the bottom face which we can't see it completely open - The the bag would actually be very simple, it would just need to also be very large (like more than twice the size of the part). I can't see the mould so I don't know if you're planning to envelope bag or tape to the mould flange but the principle would be the same either way. If the bag was large enough you could just feed two 'socks' of bag into the inlet tubes and then would blank off at the mouth of the tubes (again, I can't see the mould but I assume the mould too blanks off at the mouth of these inlet tubes). As Steve has posted we also don't know what the rectangle is but I'm assuming it's just a cuboid shaped recess which is fully closed off, in which case you could just bag around this using the huge excesses of bag I'm suggesting again too. If you were envelope bagging then just imagine an absolutely massive bag with the part and mould inside and the bag sealed all around. When you do this you can picture yourself just stuffing bag into those two inlets (as though you'd fashioned some tube shapes from the big bag and fed them into these inlets) and then and the rest into the main area. I hope this helps but if I've missed something then let me know! Hi Matt, Thanks, as yet I have not made the Mould ( The Pic I got Online) so just trying to figure out how to go about it, this is just to top part of the air box as the bottom rectangular portion is completely open as the Air Filter sits between the top and bottom portion, also the 2 round tube sections are completely open, and also the ends of the tubes have quite a hefty Flange which is used to bolt to the MAF's ?/ so how would I go about these flanges as well, again I will enclose 2 more pics, and thanks for all your help, I will get to make some CF parts very very soon with your help,Regards DM Well, the inlet tubes would have been blanked off in the mould and then cut open when the part is trimmed. Knowing that will probably change how you think about the bagging. As for the flanges, they are quite likely to be separate components that are bonded on afterwards but they don't have to be. I can't really see from the images but you could either make them as separate parts or set up removable barriers on the mould to form these flanges. Hi Matt, Looking at Steve's pic of his mould with both ends open, so looks like he just stuffed one end of his bag through one end of his mould and out the other end, and then pulled the other end of his bag over his mould and back to same end and sealed it there,?? is that correct, as my Airbox is very similar only difference is I have 3 openings, so is there any need for me to Blanks off the round open ends of mine, again thanks, Regards DM The blanking off was not really to make the bagging easier or possible (it's both of these things with or without the blanking), I was only pointing out that blanking off these opening on the moulding would be quite a normal way to make the mould (which you've not done yet). There's a lot of posts and input on this now so I'll try not to confuse matters any more for you. There is no problem bagging the shape you want to bag, with or without blanking off some of the inlets and as Hanaldo has pointed out I think we've covered well the basic principle of bagging a tubular shape in our airbox video where you can see that the principle would be the same whether you have one, two or more openings. Make your mould with confidence, when you get to the bagging stage, it will be do-able! Hi Matt/ Steve, and everyone else who advised, Yes I know you are all right, it is only me having to understand the process, as being an older Fiberglasser and over the years have had a few Major blunders where what could go wrong went wrong like trapped Moldings etc, so again Thanks for all the advise and help, I will bite the bullet very soon, Regards DM Trapped moulds, been there and got the relevant T-Shirt :-) Hi Steve and matt, I am almost ready to start, rather than Moulding the Air Box from my 458 I have just bought one from Ebay so I can still use my car, so first question how would you go about moulding it ?? as far as I can judge it will have to be a two part mould so split down the middle ?, so what material do I need to make my Mould, I will do all hand wet layup air dry/cure, and good enough to use with prepreg and an oven later on if all works out, I am thinking same materials as you used in your EC Video of the Car Bonnet, and if and when I get a good Mould made then the most difficult bit will be getting the two round Flanges laid up should I use the same Paste/Putty your EC Video of the Louvre mould used, and should I also use it on the Mould Flanges, so again any help very much appreciated, Regards DM
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Steve Broad
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Group: Forum Members
Posts: 408,
Visits: 4.1K
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+x+x+x+x+x+x+xHi I have been looking at this Air Box and trying to figure out how I can Vaccum Bag ??? to me looks impossible, so any help appreciated, Regards DM Hi There, Actually, I think you might be overthinking it. Unless there's something I'm missing - I'm assuming that the bottom face which we can't see it completely open - The the bag would actually be very simple, it would just need to also be very large (like more than twice the size of the part). I can't see the mould so I don't know if you're planning to envelope bag or tape to the mould flange but the principle would be the same either way. If the bag was large enough you could just feed two 'socks' of bag into the inlet tubes and then would blank off at the mouth of the tubes (again, I can't see the mould but I assume the mould too blanks off at the mouth of these inlet tubes). As Steve has posted we also don't know what the rectangle is but I'm assuming it's just a cuboid shaped recess which is fully closed off, in which case you could just bag around this using the huge excesses of bag I'm suggesting again too. If you were envelope bagging then just imagine an absolutely massive bag with the part and mould inside and the bag sealed all around. When you do this you can picture yourself just stuffing bag into those two inlets (as though you'd fashioned some tube shapes from the big bag and fed them into these inlets) and then and the rest into the main area. I hope this helps but if I've missed something then let me know! Hi Matt, Thanks, as yet I have not made the Mould ( The Pic I got Online) so just trying to figure out how to go about it, this is just to top part of the air box as the bottom rectangular portion is completely open as the Air Filter sits between the top and bottom portion, also the 2 round tube sections are completely open, and also the ends of the tubes have quite a hefty Flange which is used to bolt to the MAF's ?/ so how would I go about these flanges as well, again I will enclose 2 more pics, and thanks for all your help, I will get to make some CF parts very very soon with your help,Regards DM Well, the inlet tubes would have been blanked off in the mould and then cut open when the part is trimmed. Knowing that will probably change how you think about the bagging. As for the flanges, they are quite likely to be separate components that are bonded on afterwards but they don't have to be. I can't really see from the images but you could either make them as separate parts or set up removable barriers on the mould to form these flanges. Hi Matt, Looking at Steve's pic of his mould with both ends open, so looks like he just stuffed one end of his bag through one end of his mould and out the other end, and then pulled the other end of his bag over his mould and back to same end and sealed it there,?? is that correct, as my Airbox is very similar only difference is I have 3 openings, so is there any need for me to Blanks off the round open ends of mine, again thanks, Regards DM The blanking off was not really to make the bagging easier or possible (it's both of these things with or without the blanking), I was only pointing out that blanking off these opening on the moulding would be quite a normal way to make the mould (which you've not done yet). There's a lot of posts and input on this now so I'll try not to confuse matters any more for you. There is no problem bagging the shape you want to bag, with or without blanking off some of the inlets and as Hanaldo has pointed out I think we've covered well the basic principle of bagging a tubular shape in our airbox video where you can see that the principle would be the same whether you have one, two or more openings. Make your mould with confidence, when you get to the bagging stage, it will be do-able! Hi Matt/ Steve, and everyone else who advised, Yes I know you are all right, it is only me having to understand the process, as being an older Fiberglasser and over the years have had a few Major blunders where what could go wrong went wrong like trapped Moldings etc, so again Thanks for all the advise and help, I will bite the bullet very soon, Regards DM Trapped moulds, been there and got the relevant T-Shirt :-)
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Eddie Walsh
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Group: Forum Members
Posts: 52,
Visits: 294
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+x+x+x+x+x+xHi I have been looking at this Air Box and trying to figure out how I can Vaccum Bag ??? to me looks impossible, so any help appreciated, Regards DM Hi There, Actually, I think you might be overthinking it. Unless there's something I'm missing - I'm assuming that the bottom face which we can't see it completely open - The the bag would actually be very simple, it would just need to also be very large (like more than twice the size of the part). I can't see the mould so I don't know if you're planning to envelope bag or tape to the mould flange but the principle would be the same either way. If the bag was large enough you could just feed two 'socks' of bag into the inlet tubes and then would blank off at the mouth of the tubes (again, I can't see the mould but I assume the mould too blanks off at the mouth of these inlet tubes). As Steve has posted we also don't know what the rectangle is but I'm assuming it's just a cuboid shaped recess which is fully closed off, in which case you could just bag around this using the huge excesses of bag I'm suggesting again too. If you were envelope bagging then just imagine an absolutely massive bag with the part and mould inside and the bag sealed all around. When you do this you can picture yourself just stuffing bag into those two inlets (as though you'd fashioned some tube shapes from the big bag and fed them into these inlets) and then and the rest into the main area. I hope this helps but if I've missed something then let me know! Hi Matt, Thanks, as yet I have not made the Mould ( The Pic I got Online) so just trying to figure out how to go about it, this is just to top part of the air box as the bottom rectangular portion is completely open as the Air Filter sits between the top and bottom portion, also the 2 round tube sections are completely open, and also the ends of the tubes have quite a hefty Flange which is used to bolt to the MAF's ?/ so how would I go about these flanges as well, again I will enclose 2 more pics, and thanks for all your help, I will get to make some CF parts very very soon with your help,Regards DM Well, the inlet tubes would have been blanked off in the mould and then cut open when the part is trimmed. Knowing that will probably change how you think about the bagging. As for the flanges, they are quite likely to be separate components that are bonded on afterwards but they don't have to be. I can't really see from the images but you could either make them as separate parts or set up removable barriers on the mould to form these flanges. Hi Matt, Looking at Steve's pic of his mould with both ends open, so looks like he just stuffed one end of his bag through one end of his mould and out the other end, and then pulled the other end of his bag over his mould and back to same end and sealed it there,?? is that correct, as my Airbox is very similar only difference is I have 3 openings, so is there any need for me to Blanks off the round open ends of mine, again thanks, Regards DM The blanking off was not really to make the bagging easier or possible (it's both of these things with or without the blanking), I was only pointing out that blanking off these opening on the moulding would be quite a normal way to make the mould (which you've not done yet). There's a lot of posts and input on this now so I'll try not to confuse matters any more for you. There is no problem bagging the shape you want to bag, with or without blanking off some of the inlets and as Hanaldo has pointed out I think we've covered well the basic principle of bagging a tubular shape in our airbox video where you can see that the principle would be the same whether you have one, two or more openings. Make your mould with confidence, when you get to the bagging stage, it will be do-able! Hi Matt/ Steve, and everyone else who advised, Yes I know you are all right, it is only me having to understand the process, as being an older Fiberglasser and over the years have had a few Major blunders where what could go wrong went wrong like trapped Moldings etc, so again Thanks for all the advise and help, I will bite the bullet very soon, Regards DM
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Matt (Staff)
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Group: Forum Members
Posts: 680,
Visits: 1.9K
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+x+x+x+x+xHi I have been looking at this Air Box and trying to figure out how I can Vaccum Bag ??? to me looks impossible, so any help appreciated, Regards DM Hi There, Actually, I think you might be overthinking it. Unless there's something I'm missing - I'm assuming that the bottom face which we can't see it completely open - The the bag would actually be very simple, it would just need to also be very large (like more than twice the size of the part). I can't see the mould so I don't know if you're planning to envelope bag or tape to the mould flange but the principle would be the same either way. If the bag was large enough you could just feed two 'socks' of bag into the inlet tubes and then would blank off at the mouth of the tubes (again, I can't see the mould but I assume the mould too blanks off at the mouth of these inlet tubes). As Steve has posted we also don't know what the rectangle is but I'm assuming it's just a cuboid shaped recess which is fully closed off, in which case you could just bag around this using the huge excesses of bag I'm suggesting again too. If you were envelope bagging then just imagine an absolutely massive bag with the part and mould inside and the bag sealed all around. When you do this you can picture yourself just stuffing bag into those two inlets (as though you'd fashioned some tube shapes from the big bag and fed them into these inlets) and then and the rest into the main area. I hope this helps but if I've missed something then let me know! Hi Matt, Thanks, as yet I have not made the Mould ( The Pic I got Online) so just trying to figure out how to go about it, this is just to top part of the air box as the bottom rectangular portion is completely open as the Air Filter sits between the top and bottom portion, also the 2 round tube sections are completely open, and also the ends of the tubes have quite a hefty Flange which is used to bolt to the MAF's ?/ so how would I go about these flanges as well, again I will enclose 2 more pics, and thanks for all your help, I will get to make some CF parts very very soon with your help,Regards DM Well, the inlet tubes would have been blanked off in the mould and then cut open when the part is trimmed. Knowing that will probably change how you think about the bagging. As for the flanges, they are quite likely to be separate components that are bonded on afterwards but they don't have to be. I can't really see from the images but you could either make them as separate parts or set up removable barriers on the mould to form these flanges. Hi Matt, Looking at Steve's pic of his mould with both ends open, so looks like he just stuffed one end of his bag through one end of his mould and out the other end, and then pulled the other end of his bag over his mould and back to same end and sealed it there,?? is that correct, as my Airbox is very similar only difference is I have 3 openings, so is there any need for me to Blanks off the round open ends of mine, again thanks, Regards DM The blanking off was not really to make the bagging easier or possible (it's both of these things with or without the blanking), I was only pointing out that blanking off these opening on the moulding would be quite a normal way to make the mould (which you've not done yet). There's a lot of posts and input on this now so I'll try not to confuse matters any more for you. There is no problem bagging the shape you want to bag, with or without blanking off some of the inlets and as Hanaldo has pointed out I think we've covered well the basic principle of bagging a tubular shape in our airbox video where you can see that the principle would be the same whether you have one, two or more openings. Make your mould with confidence, when you get to the bagging stage, it will be do-able!
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Hanaldo
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Group: Forum Members
Posts: 2.5K,
Visits: 28K
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It is exactly the same method that Easy Composites used in their first pre-preg tutorial video. Watch here from about 15 minutes in and pay attention to how they make the bag meet itself inside the mould by feeding it in from two sides: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cQ1Q4XmItN0In all honesty, I think tubes and things with a single opening on each end are best done with internal vacuum bagging methods as you described where the bag is pushed through the inside of the mould and pulled back over the outside and sealed onto itself. But for parts like this airbox where you have two openings on the one side, although you can make an internal bag work it is much trickier, and so it is just easier to use the method that Easy Composites demonstrate in the video.
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Eddie Walsh
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Group: Forum Members
Posts: 52,
Visits: 294
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+x+x+x+x+x+x+xA bit like this.  Hi Steve Thanks, I can see your mould has an opening on top, but is the other end also open like mine?? Regards DM Yes, it's my intake tube to the turbo. There is now a flange on the rectangle end to connect to the next section and a flange to bolt to the turbo.  Hi Steve, Thanks, so was the rectangle end of your Mould blanked off for Vacuum bagging and then when released from mould you cut out the rectangle end, is that correct, again Thanks for your help, Regards DM No, both ends were open and the bag was pushed in both ends and met in the middle. I Steve, I still cannot see how you can push one end of a bag in one end of your mould and the other end of your bag in the other end of your mold and have them meet in the middle, as far I can see when you Vacuumed your bag it would just colapse on it self so no pressure on the Molding ???Regards DM Yeah, I thought that at first, but it actually works :-) You suck the air out of the volume between the bag and the mould, regardless of what side the bag is. The air between the bag sections pushed into the openings is inside the bag so it is sucked out. Trust me, it works :-)   Hi Steve,I trust you, but as you say I still cannot see it, so if you are right then with my Airbox with 3 openings I do not have to blank off the openings just stuff the bag through the rectangle one and push it through the other two then pull the other end of the bag right over my Mould to the end with the two openings and seal it off, vacuum and let it cure, so again Thanks for all your help and patience, Regards DM
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Steve Broad
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Group: Forum Members
Posts: 408,
Visits: 4.1K
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+x+x+x+x+x+xA bit like this. Hi Steve Thanks, I can see your mould has an opening on top, but is the other end also open like mine?? Regards DM Yes, it's my intake tube to the turbo. There is now a flange on the rectangle end to connect to the next section and a flange to bolt to the turbo. Hi Steve, Thanks, so was the rectangle end of your Mould blanked off for Vacuum bagging and then when released from mould you cut out the rectangle end, is that correct, again Thanks for your help, Regards DM No, both ends were open and the bag was pushed in both ends and met in the middle. I Steve, I still cannot see how you can push one end of a bag in one end of your mould and the other end of your bag in the other end of your mold and have them meet in the middle, as far I can see when you Vacuumed your bag it would just colapse on it self so no pressure on the Molding ???Regards DM Yeah, I thought that at first, but it actually works :-) You suck the air out of the volume between the bag and the mould, regardless of what side the bag is. The air between the bag sections pushed into the openings is inside the bag so it is sucked out. Trust me, it works :-)
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Eddie Walsh
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Group: Forum Members
Posts: 52,
Visits: 294
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+x+x+x+x+xA bit like this. Hi Steve Thanks, I can see your mould has an opening on top, but is the other end also open like mine?? Regards DM Yes, it's my intake tube to the turbo. There is now a flange on the rectangle end to connect to the next section and a flange to bolt to the turbo. Hi Steve, Thanks, so was the rectangle end of your Mould blanked off for Vacuum bagging and then when released from mould you cut out the rectangle end, is that correct, again Thanks for your help, Regards DM No, it was left open and the bag pushed in from both ends. I added the turbo flange (as it has an internal trumpet so not possible to make in one piece) and flange.   I Steve, I still cannot see how you can push one end of a bag in one end of your mould and the other end of your bag in the other end of your mold and have them meet in the middle, as far I can see when you Vacuumed your bag it would just colapse on it self so no pressure on the Molding ???Regards DM
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