Hi ive been running a small bodyshop now for a while and find quoting on one off jobs or a job you havn't done before very hard as you dont know how long or how hard it is going to be.

I would say if you charge per hour for the mould making plus the cost of materials you cant make a loss as it may take you longer than you first thought ie if you charge 300-400 for the mold and it takes you twice as long its now only 150-200 for the mold.

as for the part itself i would say charge enouth for the materials so that if for any reason it goes wrong in the making process you can start again without eating into your profits to much because if materials are £50 to you and you charge only £60 and you labour is 100 (totle 160 you make 110) but it goes wrong and you need the materials again it will cost you an other 50 so now you have only made 60 and twice as long to the job

only you can say how much you want for making the part it all down to if your doing it for a little extra cash or trying to make a living from it.

hope this is of some use

Rob      

Well warren I am buying a lot of tools because as you advance in this field the less you want to do everything by hand, need sanders,cutters, polishers etc.  Sometimes things don’t work as they seem, sometimes they work better than expected.

“650g carbon for the backing layers as its equivalent to 3layers of 200gsm” But us it as strong??

As far as the diversity, I will be giving the customer soptions plus I like to have options as well I need to buy all these materials so I can get familiar with them, easy composites is about a 24 hr jet flight soI don’t get to stop in as much as I like to get info.

I do make parts for my car and sell direct but also offerthe service of making new parts. Therefore I need to be on a mold fee + partsbasis.

 

Mike; I see your point but for getting started I know I needto hit a certain price point.  IF you can’tmake a hood for less than 500 bucks you got problems, so comparing the goingrate for a particular hood is kind of necessary to see the supply and demandfor it. I could find a hood for a ford focus for like 550.00, well same sizehood for a lambo is 2500.00

That tells me Majority of the costs in buying CF parts isthe Supply of the particular part and the amount of work needed to finish it.Not really the cost of the materials used. 

 

And as far as the plate, it’s more of a “GLIDE plate”meaning it is flush against the frame rails and will be reinforced by that.

 

mwr2452: Thanks for the input, wow you really give a good deal for a mold! For parts smaller than 2x2 that only require 1 mold I may do:

 

If you just need one 300 for mold + part cost

If you buy 5 you can pay 200 for mold + part cost@90%

If you buy 10 you can pay 100 more mold + part costs@80%

1part: 400ea

5parts: 130ea

10 parts: 90ea

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I keep my prices fixed for a majority of the work. Mold making, if I have the customers part to start with is $100. With crotch rocket guys, they can go in together and get something like front fenders made. Then I charge $45 per hour of job time. I don't worry them with the price breakdown and they know that everyone pays the same. I'm working on a mold that will let me cast a fender and use adhesive to set the mount holes and brake lines. Thats just one example. I'm knocking out hoods (bonnets), front splitters, rear spoiler (with a real air foil), valve covers, strut crossmembers, and trunks at the same price and a little lower than retail name brand. I have the personal market that big business doesnt. And I can usually make what a customer wants in a weekend, and thats why you can offer service at a more standard price.

Just like in any job, you must pay yourself, just like an employee.

Dennis, the figure that worries me is the "30-35% markup" which doesn't actually seem to be based on anything.  MARGIN is your important figure, not mark up.  Ignoring the mould for a second, you have your materials cost per plate, for the sake of the argument let's call it $80 (fabric, resin etc).  Then you have your heat, light, labour / design / salary, profit plus any other expenses.  Add all that in per plate and that's your cost, lets say that makes the total now $140. Then you need to add your profit - what that is is up to you of course, but figure on no less than 35% on top - your kid plate price is now $189.50

Quick comment on the plates - is carbon the right reinforcement for this? I'm a rally rider (husky 630 TE) and I would happily use a thick kevlar plate, but not a carbon one as surely the carbon would crack, craze and split?

Why are you buying soo many materials and tools?

Diversity is good in a business but if youre stocking so many different materials, you either have a lot of cash tied up in stock, or you end up buying each material at low volume costs.  You probably want to try and limit your material stock initially. eg 2x2 twill, plain weave and kevlar for parts and grp for moulds.  A good tip for you if you want to make bigger parts like panels is to use the 650g carbon for the backing layers as its equivilent to 3 layers of 200gsm cloth yet it costs much less, ie you use one metre of 650g at £25 but the same thickness in 2x2 200gsm would cost you £63.50.

tools you should have a "core" set of tools that wont really change for most items, eg sanding papers/blocks, set of files, cutting discs, scissors, etc etc.  Generally for most parts you use the same basic tools.

Keep it simple stupid at first.  When i first started out i started with a really complicated shape car tank which was difficult to get right.  Sure i learnt loads in the process but on a very steep learning curve that could have been prone to many expensive failures in the process.  I literally live 10 minutes drive from Easy Composites so i was down there 2 or 3 times a week at first to get advice. Without that direct access to experience or knowledge, i would have made all the newbie mistakes at great expense rather than going the recommended gradual learning curve.


For that plate, first thing you do is step away from the workshop and get out a note pad and start measuring and planning.  First thing is work out your basic part design and how you are going to make it. Plan how you need your mould to be to achieve that.  Then you need to start measuring. eg in effect you want to initially know the surface area of the fabric you will use. Work out what you need to do to prep the plug. Once you know that you can work out fabric for mould (remember to add for the flanges), amount of tooling gel coat, laminating resin, etc.  Then look at how many layers of fabric you need.  Remember you will have seemingly useless offcuts so you need to account for thier cost too. I tend to use offcuts or roll ends in moulds or on very small parts as backing layers, but there will be waste.  Calculate your resins, vacuum consumables etc.  Then its into time.  With experience you will know roughly how long it takes you to do each stage for parts of different sizes.  initially estimate it, later on measure it on the prototype and first parts then adjust and review accordingly.  time taken will equate to wage costs, electric, rent etc.

You just need to draw it up on a table. Make yourself a generic costing table template that you just fill in the quantities and work out cost per line then subtotal it at bottom.

Do you sell direct or to resellers?  if it were me as a start up, id be selling direct with a simple but colourful website and get on a few car forums related to your products.  Selling direct cuts out the markup of a reseller. it means you can sell a part slightly cheaper than the competitor and make a bit more profit. However selling to a reseller can be useful if you dont want the hassle of dealing directly with the public as such.  If youre making some thing highly exclusive or special, there can be an advantage to getting in with a well known reseller as thier reputation will rub off on you initially. Eg a well known motorsport supplier will likely have a reputation for not selling junk, so to get your product sold via them says lots for your product and can be a quicker way into some difficult or close knit customer bases. Remember initially your reputation is rock bottom and many will have started out then failed quickly.

Moulding costs really are a judgement call. Im just a hobby seller at the moment. Mostly i make bits for my car.  However i will make bits for others but its at my discretion. Generally if someone wants me to make something i know i can sell loads of, then as long as its smallish then i can take the hit on the moulding costs. If its something i would want on my car in the future, again do something with the moulding costs.  Otherwise you need a judgement call on if you think a product will sell enough to justify soaking up the moulding and development costs yourself.   One offs IMO need to have moulding paid for by the client, no questions asked really. 

Group buys depends on your business size and demand.  There is no right answer. As said, it is common place in the UK for group buys in the motorsport/car modifying scene for new parts not available.  You need the basic figures to qoute on them. Eg mould cost, part cost and see how many you need to sell to cover the mould yet still not make the retail cost to the customer too high.

Dont forget that most business are out to make a profit, so factor in some profit into qoutations and calculations.  After all there is little point making 10 bonnets and to make no money.  Unless of course youre prepared to take the hit for the gain in reputation or future other custom.  Also remember as a start up, your first few years may well be spent earning money to pay off the business set up costs.

Wow Warren, thanks for taking the time to lay it all on the line!!

Here's a bit more about my angle on how I am doing it for now.

 

Because I am buying so many different materials and tools I really don't have a set list of things I use, therefore I cannot calculate it all out like you say, however I could not agree more thats the only way to be sure your not getting ripped or ripping your customers off.

I'm kinda going by the 30-35 % markup deal. Meaning If I see a similar part I am about to make I try to leave the purchaser 30-35% for their own markup. Sure I could make them order a higher quantity but for me that don't help much since its just me and my one bud making the parts.

I know thats not the safest way but its all I got for now.

 

Warren would you do a hypothetical question for me? What If I wanted you to make me this dirt bike glide plate, what would you quote the mold cost to be? how many units would you want to sell to completely eliminate the mold fee?

I really want to get something in place for these "Group Buys" so people can avoid the mold fees.



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Warren is right, I couldn't agree more with him. You have to make your own estimations about costing and charging or you can check the price a competitor sells and according to your data to deside if you can follow a same price - and indeed some people don't seem to understand the difference (in labour - cost and weight) between real carbon parts and those covered in sticker-  they pay peanuts, yet expect the world for their money...

TBH most of it is pretty standard business practice in terms of calculating.

eg

cost raw materials
cost of facilities/equipment
labour
delivery
profit
tax.

Generally as a small/home business, the main variables are labour, profit margin and equipment/facilities.

You need to factor into the equipment/facilities costs such things as rent, electric, vacuum pump, tools etc.  You need some experience to guage that. Pumps can last years if looked after. Hand tools you will learn their lifespan with use.  If youre working from home, its a fine balance to work out reasonable utility costs.  If you rent a workshop its a bit easier but still guesswork as you need to work out for example roughly a monthly figure for rent and bills then try to estimate the amount of hours work you will do on business work per month based on estimated trade.  That way you can come up with a "per hour" cost to cover the use of facilities and equipment and then you can use that in your qoutation. Labour is whatever you want to be paid and as a small start up is the bit you need to be flexible with sometimes, as well as profit margins.

In terms of moulding costs it depends on the product.  Generally one offs or limited production runs, the client pays in full for the moulding cost.  However for product lines you will sell in larger quantities you can estimate your expected sales in say 6 months, then divide the cost of the mould by the number of expected sales to get price.  You then know in 6 months the mould has paid for itself.  Smaller volume parts can use minimum quantities. over here in the UK, it is common in composites for car clubs to arrange a group buy on say bonnets. The manufacturer would likely have a minimum quantity of say 5 to 10 bonnets to cover moulding costs. 

The hard bit is YOU have to judge what you feel is acceptable minimum orders and for stock products what is a viable time to get a return. if possible find out what competitors charge for a similar product and if your estimate is wildly out, you know somethings wrong in your estimates.

Even as a home business you often find that making parts can often when priced up properly not be massively cheaper than a bigger company could make them for. Yes you might have lower overheads and labour costs and profit margines, however a bigger company will have much bigger buying power in bulk for raw materials.

Just look at the per metre cost and per 100 metre roll costs of carbon fabric for example.

Its not an easy game to get into when you have no experience and not much cash flow.


Oh and dont be too cheap.  for some very strange reason, if you are too cheap you will have trouble.  Decent folk will be suspicious and think somethings wrong, and the rest will be the kind of customers no business wants - ie trouble.  For some reason people at the cheap end of the market (pretty much whatever it is, from car sales, carbon work to fitting kitchens!) are complete idiots to deal with.  They pay peanuts, yet expect the world for their money.

Alright, I knew this day would come but I am actually starting to get some orders for some 1-10 of parts. My trouble is I really need help in getting this pricing right.

Besides material costs I am trying to figure out good going rates for these services.

Here's my example:https://www.denniskirk.com/carbon-fiber-skid-plates-by-eline.p494562.prd

Looking to quote someone for making the mould for this and parts. So as far as a mold fee for a part this size whats a normal price you weekend warriors charge? Also do you give discounts for quantity or require your customers to buy more that one part?

I was thinking 300 to 400 for the mold and then about 90 for the part if I made on like in this link:



Luckly these first parts will be bare CF so I dont need to worry about the gc50 and clearcoat.



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