wozza
|
|
Group: Forum Members
Posts: 688,
Visits: 5.4K
|
Much depends on the facilities, skill level and budget you have available. Its all well and good designing the "ultimate" only to find practical or budgetary restrictions make it impossible to manufacture correctly. Given the relatively small loadings it should be possible to keep the layup simple by using the profile of the the shaft to add strength. Braided sleeve comes in a variety of sizes and can be expanded or contracted easily. If you go up a size, when you pull it to contract it the fibres become more inline getting nearer to uni directional. With some thought you can use this to your advantage. For me I would increase the number of layers in the area where the head will attach, giving a tapered wall thickness along its length. To try and disperse any point loadings. You could add some E-Glass or similar to improve impact resistance if required. I would be concentrating more on how to attach the head to the shaft reliably. By keeping the layup simple you should get much better repeatability, making any testing you do more meaningful and accurate. Obviously this is just my opinion  Warren.
Carbon Copies Ltd
|
|
|
Jonas
|
|
Group: Forum Members
Posts: 16,
Visits: 120
|
I thought steel could be designed for infinite load cycles. As long as you keep the load below a given amount it never reaches the fatigue limit. Aluminum on the other hand will always fail after enough cycles, no matter how small the load is. I think titanium's the only other metal that can be designed with infinite load cycles. I was aware that CF doesn't usually exhibit signs of fatigue, and instead fails catastrophically. These qualities are very exciting when you're hanging from the stuff 100 feet off the ground 
Black Diamond has to design large safety factor into their equipment for liability reasons. I, on the other hand, can skirt closer to that line of critical failure. Black Diamond has a test for their CF tools; they have an intern beat them on a curb 100 times on each side, then they retest to CEB-T standards. I don't quite need that level of durability. I understand the principles behind it, but it's not really analagous to the stresses the tool will see during use. I'd rather have it be a little lighter. My parametric CAD professor told me "the best transmission is the one that explodes as you cross the finish line. If it lasts any longer you over-engineered it, and it could have been lighter and smaller." I'd like the ice axes to last a couple races though...
So you'd just recommend the -45/45 sleeving then? I was liking the idea of wrapping it with some 0/90 so the vertical strands would carry the primary load. It'd be awesome if I could find some triaxial sleeving with -45/0/45 orientation, but it's looking like it'll be hard to track down...
|
|
|
wozza
|
|
Group: Forum Members
Posts: 688,
Visits: 5.4K
|
One thing I have found from testing is that carbon is extremely tolerant to fatigue.(when designed correctly) If the shaft on your project was made from steel or aluminum tube you would expect the cycle of on/off loads to cause fatigue cracking at the point where the shaft joins to the head, so you would have to design in the number of expected cycles plus a safety factor. With carbon if it is capable of taking the load 10 times it will take the load 1000 times if that makes sense. On the downside unlike steel or ally a carbon part gives little or no indication if it has been overloaded, it simply breaks. We actually now use this in the wishbone design, eliminating the rose joints on the inner mounts. The wishbone itself now provides the flex to allow suspension movement. As for layup. If you are new to composites and planning on using some sort of split mould with an internal bladder I would use braided sleeve. As this will expand and contract easily. You could place the sleeve over the bladder, wet out with resin, place in the mould and expand the bladder. If you wrap conventional cloth around the bladder and don't allow sufficient "slack" then the bladder wont be able to expand inside the mould. Perhaps now you are beginning to understand the high cost of the ones at the beginning of your post, you are paying for the R&D that has gone into getting the product to market.  I would imagine they have also designed in a lot of "what if" scenarios as in the real world people tend to use these things for purposes they were not necessarily designed for.  Sorry the wishbone development like much of my work is covered by a wagon load of NDA's so I cant give too much away on a public forum. 
Hope that helps Warren
Carbon Copies Ltd
|
|
|
Jonas
|
|
Group: Forum Members
Posts: 16,
Visits: 120
|
Awesome, thanks guys! Warren, would you suggest I use some unidirectional cf in the layup? I feel like I could get away with something like half the length, since I'm already using some 0/90, and the uni would primarily be to distribute the point loading the head creates. I found some uni carbon sleeve somewhere online a while ago, but I feel like when the inner tube expanded it all the fibers would just spread apart, so I'd have to use quite a few layers to get it to work. Both points should see about the same stress I'd assume, but the back corner would be pushed up into the head, loading the ends of the fibers along their length. Though now that I say it i don't think it'll be much of an issue. Testing will begin soon... What fabric weight and weave would you guys recommend using?
|
|
|
Brian2fast
|
|
Group: Forum Members
Posts: 79,
Visits: 1.3K
|
Looks like you're heading down the right road with you're thinking so far. I was just thinking the right hand load point on the 2nd sketch looked pretty sharp. Carbon doesn't really like point loading. Warren was highlighting this as well I think. Both points will see the same stress, what about evening things up and whacking some holes in the sides?  Now the other important point. Warren, where's you're thread on carbon suspension wishbones?!?! That comment is useless without pics!
|
|
|
wozza
|
|
Group: Forum Members
Posts: 688,
Visits: 5.4K
|
I can find little fault with your thinking so far. All things being equal failure will occur at the point where there is a change in section, the more you can smooth that transition the better. By layering the reinforcement along the length of the shaft you can transfer the loads from the head reducing the point loads where the two connect. I do very similar with race car wishbones where there are aluminium inserts bonded into carbon tubes. Don't underestimate the power of destruction testing, if nothing else it will give you a real insight into how cf performs under a given load even if the profiles you have availabile are not what you end up using. |
|
|
Jonas
|
|
Group: Forum Members
Posts: 16,
Visits: 120
|
Perrrrrrfect. Now to make friends with the professor who runs the machine shop.... So what should my fabric weights/layers be? I've tried to get a feel for how strong CF is but it seems like there's so many variables between resin and infusion and weave pattern etc., not to mention that it's very dependent on how you load it. Should I get sleeving that has the same circumference (I say that and not diameter because the handles will be kinda oval shaped) as the desired handle, so it's right at 45* from vertical? Or do I want to get it a little bigger so it stretches down and gives me something like 30*? Or does it not even matter that much (I'm betting it doesn't, since I feel that any structural failures will occur at where the head assembly attaches to the shaft.) Guide me, oh wise ones. I have ANOTHER question on attaching the head too. So from what I understand from paying a s*** load of money in physics classes, this is what's gonna be going on inside my ice axe (Cross-section):  When it's loaded, the head's going to be like a lever, with the bottom left corner and top right corners carrying most of the load. I'm pretty sure the bottom left would be fine, but I'm concerned the top right would basically crush the CF slowly. This also looks like most of the back side of the head insert is doing nothing but adding weight, so here's a six-second revision:  Nowwwww the back point wouldn't be quite so small, but it's more of a proof-of-concept than a working drawing. Is all of this semi-right though? Or will the epoxy adhere well enough to distribute the load along the whole length of the insert? This also looks like the longer the insert is the less load the top right corner will feel, so I guess I've gotta come up with a balance between weight and strength...hmmmmm... I actually have like an 18mm ID CF tube that I bought a while back for some rocket project in physics or something but never used, so I was thinking about cutting it into little pieces and testing various heads to failure to see what works and what would be directly responsible for my death. We'll see though...I need a spring scale or something to measure the load or it wouldn't be of much use to me. The project budget grows.......
|
|
|
wozza
|
|
Group: Forum Members
Posts: 688,
Visits: 5.4K
|
Most adhesives I have used had a recommended clearance of 0.2-0.4 mm so your not far off at 10 thou. Too tight a fit and most of the adhesive gets pushed out when the parts are assembled. Warren
Carbon Copies Ltd
|
|
|
Jonas
|
|
Group: Forum Members
Posts: 16,
Visits: 120
|
I had more stuff but I got to an actual computer and didn't want to type on my phone anymore. Looking at most ice climbing tools you'll notice that they have some kind of handle. Black Diamond's Cobra picks (Which are also made of CF and looking at them again I suspect were a subconscious inspiration for the indent along the length of the shaft of mine) just have a little pinky-hook (I'm sure there's an actual term for it but I'm making them so I'll call it whatever I want!). Part of me wants to go this route, because it would be pretty easy, and really the only thing that I'd have to change or do differently would be to machine that out when I make the spike on the bottom. Cobras (Which retail for a whopping $340...EACH):  For the head and spike you mentioned that I need to use epoxy w/ filler to attach them. What kind of gap would I be aiming for between the shaft and head/spike? I feel as though a really snug fit (within 0.010") would be optimal so that when they're loaded they'd be stressing the actual shaft and not a bunch of epoxy (like the other guy who made his own picks...) Is this correct?
|
|
|
Jonas
|
|
Group: Forum Members
Posts: 16,
Visits: 120
|
I'm sure my machinist buddy will be thrilled to hear that instead of just cutting a channel with constant radius fillets on the sides, I now want a superellipse, haha. I wish they let us actually use the 3D printer at school, then I could print out a superellipe handle and make a mold of it in fiberglass. Oh well. I was going to ask about Kevlar! Not just for an internal structural layer, but also as a shield for the front of the tool, extending below the pick. I was thinking I'd rather have a layer of Kevlar take a beating if I accidentally smash it into a rock or something. I could potentially make it removable so after it gets too beat up I can replace it, but we'll cross that bridge when we come to it. We're on the same page with the sleeving then! I was thinking the sleeving layer(s) would be on the outside, that way when the tool is weighted the horizontal fibers in the cloth would carry the load of the head torquing in the shaft, the vertical fibers would carry my body weight, and the sleeving would act like a Chinese finger trap and squeeze it all together, but still be largely unloaded in case of twisting. I don't actually know what I'm doing though so maybe someone else has more input there. My thought process with the indent along the tubing was along the same lines as angle iron. I figured that the dent would add fabric and prevent the shaft from twisting and loading the fibers off-axis. I wasn't really sure though so I'll just put that idea away.
|
|
|