newbie questions :)


Author
Message
coleio
coleio
Supreme Being (418 reputation)Supreme Being (418 reputation)Supreme Being (418 reputation)Supreme Being (418 reputation)Supreme Being (418 reputation)Supreme Being (418 reputation)Supreme Being (418 reputation)Supreme Being (418 reputation)Supreme Being (418 reputation)
Group: Forum Members
Posts: 68, Visits: 285
hi guys, new to the composites world and have a few questions, hope you's dont mind.

1. carbon kevlar aramid fabric, is it stronger than normal carbon fabric? ignoring the inflated price what benifits does it provide over just plain cf? what is it like in a crash, does it crack and shatter the same way as cf?
2. some terms i have seen thrown around, "twill" and "2 twill" thats the weave type right? is "twill" suitable for auto panel making, i have seen elsewhere most use 2twill. also 2k,3k,6k, that refers to the density if each weave, the amount of strands?
3. soric sf2, i noticed this being used in the "how to make a bonnet" tutorial, am i right in saying that it doesnt compress? that would seem to be a problem for me, where a bonnet or q-panel skin might only be .8mm, adding a 2mm layer of soric doesnt seem like the best idea, where and why is it used?
4.im investing in a bulk order of 50m x 1.5m of carbon/kevlar fabric from china. i saw in some tutorials many different weights used, in the bonnet tutorial he used 200g and 600g fabrics, i dont want to have to order two or three types of rolls, do you think a 400g per m/squared is ok for making automotive panels?
or, the supplier says he can get me a 200g roll of carbon kevlar 1.5m x 50m and a 600g 1.5m x 50m roll of just carbon for about 15%less per roll. if you guys think using just 400g is unsuitable i might go for the second option.

i do have more but cant think of any right now. thanks for taking the time to read ppl, looking forward to your replies

Cole
ChrisR
ChrisR
Supreme Being (2.8K reputation)Supreme Being (2.8K reputation)Supreme Being (2.8K reputation)Supreme Being (2.8K reputation)Supreme Being (2.8K reputation)Supreme Being (2.8K reputation)Supreme Being (2.8K reputation)Supreme Being (2.8K reputation)Supreme Being (2.8K reputation)
Group: Forum Members
Posts: 363, Visits: 3K
Hi Cole,
To start with as you are new to composites, and please don't take this the wrong way but walk before you can run.

1) Not sure what you mean by inflated prices, they are usually about the same within a couple of £/m, having an amarid/kevlar hybrid weave as  backing layer will help prevent carbon shards going everywhere in a crash, some like using diolin as a true backing layer as it tends to stretch more on impact and helps keep the laminate together. If you do crash, the section with fail and is bin fodder anyway so you are preventing secondary damage to occupants or parts rather.

2) The pattern is just the weave pattern so it can be twill, plain, fish, satin etc... so whatever you prefer really, twill will drape better over curves than plain, 2x2 twill is the most common, so there are two tows at 90deg to every tow at 0deg in both directions hence the pattern. Plain woven is an over under patten, satin & fish are not worth thinking about in your application.

2k/3k/6k/12k are the number carbon strands per tow and has an effect on the look and the number of tows per inch/cm as this will reflect the density of tows better.

3) Any core whether it's PVC, Corecell, Soric, balsawood, cork etc... is used to space out the top and bottom of the laminate increasing it's stiffness (moment of inertia or second moment of area) without adding too much weight or the additional cost the fabic/resin to make the core. Use it to stiffen areas or entire panels where required. Any fixing locations need to be solid rather than with a core so these areas can be locally infilled, you make the laminate as thick or as thin as you need for the specific area.

4) before you blitz a grand or two so on a roll from the other side of the world without knowing what you want get some samples from a UK supplier, EC do samples about 50p each so get a few before you buy so you know what you want. The weight of the material per square metre is exactly that, 200gsm is a nice fine weave and lightweight fabric, 375/450 is a bit heavier and typically is a larger weave, 650gsm is a heavyweight reinforcement used mainly for structural and backing so you use say 200gsm as the layer you'll see and then 650  or whatever behind that to add the strength and stiffness.

As you are using it cosmetically  then the weave and weight are really for asthetic only so it can be whatever you want Smile

https://www.easycomposites.co.uk/composite-reinforcement-samples

But seriously, if you have never worked with the stuff before, buy a few metres and have a play. Also don't skimp on the resin.
coleio
coleio
Supreme Being (418 reputation)Supreme Being (418 reputation)Supreme Being (418 reputation)Supreme Being (418 reputation)Supreme Being (418 reputation)Supreme Being (418 reputation)Supreme Being (418 reputation)Supreme Being (418 reputation)Supreme Being (418 reputation)
Group: Forum Members
Posts: 68, Visits: 285
epic reply is epic

thanks mate, much appreciated!! 

the kevlar is from what i find about $4 more expensive, if anything its a better marketing angle when selling the finished product so will probably go with that.
ive worked alot with fiberglass before, i know they are diffrent but do share some small similarities when it comes to attention to detail, steady hands etc, so im not too worried with ordering bulk as i know with practice i will get the hang of it.

definately wont be skimping on the resins and other consumables, just a hassle finding a supplier who sells all of what i need. if you think finding a spplier for goodquality fabric is hard, getting one for chemicals, resins etc will give you a hernia lol

thanks again
coleio
coleio
Supreme Being (418 reputation)Supreme Being (418 reputation)Supreme Being (418 reputation)Supreme Being (418 reputation)Supreme Being (418 reputation)Supreme Being (418 reputation)Supreme Being (418 reputation)Supreme Being (418 reputation)Supreme Being (418 reputation)
Group: Forum Members
Posts: 68, Visits: 285
oh one more question.

on the bonnet making tutorial someone mentioned the need to cook or oven the panel so it can be painted but it was never elaborated.

if i was to paint a panel, what do i need to do? cook the panel in the mould as its setting, or after?

and does cooking it speed up the setting time? what temps should it be done at?
ChrisR
ChrisR
Supreme Being (2.8K reputation)Supreme Being (2.8K reputation)Supreme Being (2.8K reputation)Supreme Being (2.8K reputation)Supreme Being (2.8K reputation)Supreme Being (2.8K reputation)Supreme Being (2.8K reputation)Supreme Being (2.8K reputation)Supreme Being (2.8K reputation)
Group: Forum Members
Posts: 363, Visits: 3K
if you think finding a spplier for goodquality fabric is hard, getting one for chemicals, resins etc will give you a hernia lol


tbh, not really lol, the UK has some of the best suppliers and manufactuers of fabrics, resins and other chemicals in the world! Try doing this in Australia, carbon/kelvar is AU$100/m2 !

if i was to paint a panel, what do i need to do? cook the panel in the mould as its setting, or after?

and does cooking it speed up the setting time? what temps should it be done at?


What you are talking about is raised temperature cure and raised temp post cure, raising the temp of the resin during the cure will reduce the viscocity and reduce the voids because it allows the resin to flow into areas it couldn't. The raised temp during the cure or post cure then also helps build the crosslinking polymers within the epoxy and increases it's mechanical properties and Tg.

If you don't at least post cure then when you bake in the paint booth it will most likely deform even if well supported. Even if you don't bake, say with a bonnet, it will post cure on the car due to the engine heat causing deformation or at least sag lines in the finished surface where it changes stiffness

Temp depends on the resin, most low to medium temp resins like curing at 60-100 degrees C for 6-8hrs but refer to the resin datasheet for the cure cycle as each is different, not sure on the EC resins but the one I use the most likes 40deg for an hour or so then 80deg for 8hrs, raising the temp at 1-2deg/hour. You have to experiment with the resins to find the one you like working with and has the properties required (apart from mechanical properties, pot life, gel time, viscosity, demould time to name a few)

coleio
coleio
Supreme Being (418 reputation)Supreme Being (418 reputation)Supreme Being (418 reputation)Supreme Being (418 reputation)Supreme Being (418 reputation)Supreme Being (418 reputation)Supreme Being (418 reputation)Supreme Being (418 reputation)Supreme Being (418 reputation)
Group: Forum Members
Posts: 68, Visits: 285
thanks again Chris, so not only does baking (the word i was looking for ha) peed up the curing process, it makes for a better quality part, cool. 

so if i was to paint the part, baking for 8 hrs at the correct temps would do, or is baking after it is cured also necessary?
ChrisR
ChrisR
Supreme Being (2.8K reputation)Supreme Being (2.8K reputation)Supreme Being (2.8K reputation)Supreme Being (2.8K reputation)Supreme Being (2.8K reputation)Supreme Being (2.8K reputation)Supreme Being (2.8K reputation)Supreme Being (2.8K reputation)Supreme Being (2.8K reputation)
Group: Forum Members
Posts: 363, Visits: 3K
it all depends on the resin, cure cycle and paint/primer you want to use
coleio
coleio
Supreme Being (418 reputation)Supreme Being (418 reputation)Supreme Being (418 reputation)Supreme Being (418 reputation)Supreme Being (418 reputation)Supreme Being (418 reputation)Supreme Being (418 reputation)Supreme Being (418 reputation)Supreme Being (418 reputation)
Group: Forum Members
Posts: 68, Visits: 285
given that both examples were made to equal quality and standards, which is stronger, carbon or carbon/kevlar?
GO

Merge Selected

Merge into selected topic...



Merge into merge target...



Merge into a specific topic ID...




Similar Topics

Reading This Topic

Explore
Messages
Mentions
Search