How do I Vaccum Bag this Air Box ??

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How do I Vaccum Bag this Air Box ??

How do I Vaccum Bag this Air Box ??

How do I Vaccum Bag this Air Box ??

Author	Message
Eddie Walsh	E Eddie Walsh posted 8 Years Ago HOT Topic Details
E Group: Forum Members Posts: 52, Visits: 294	Hi I have been looking at this Air Box and trying to figure out how I can Vaccum Bag ??? to me looks impossible, so any help appreciated, Regards DM Attachments 458 Air Box.jpg (1.2K views, 1.00 MB)
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oekmont	oekmont posted 7 Years Ago HOT Post Details
Group: Forum Members Posts: 550, Visits: 27K	Epoxy doesn't dissolve usual binders, because it doesn't contain solvents. In tooling applications epoxy is usually used in combination with woven cloth. The first layer of a mould would be something like 160 g/m^2 glass cloth. Or is it a special epoxy compatible mat? They behave different than standard csm in polyester. In direct comparison the word "worse" would describe it best. But not as bad as you described. To be honest, I would recommend to let it cure and start again with proper planning and testing. Edited 7 Years Ago by oekmont
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How do I Vaccum Bag this Air Box ??

Dinoman - 8 Years Ago

What is the rectangle in the middle?

Steve Broad - 8 Years Ago

Hi There, Actually, I think you might be overthinking it. Unless there's something I'm missing - I'm assuming that the bottom face which we can't see it completely open - The the bag would actually....

Matt (Staff) - 8 Years Ago

Hi Matt, Thanks, as yet I have not made the Mould ( The Pic I got Online) so just trying to figure out how to go about it, this is just to top part of the air box as the bottom rectangular portion is...

Dinoman - 8 Years Ago

Well, the inlet tubes would have been blanked off in the mould and then cut open when the part is trimmed. Knowing that will probably change how you think about the bagging. As for the flanges, they....

Matt (Staff) - 8 Years Ago

Hi Matt, Looking at Steve's pic of his mould with both ends open, so looks like he just stuffed one end of his bag through one end of his mould and out the other end, and then pulled the other end of...

Dinoman - 8 Years Ago

The blanking off was not really to make the bagging easier or possible (it's both of these things with or without the blanking), I was only pointing out that blanking off these opening on the mouldin...

Matt (Staff) - 8 Years Ago

Hi Matt/ Steve, and everyone else who advised, Yes I know you are all right, it is only me having to understand the process, as being an older Fiberglasser and over the years have had a few Major...

Dinoman - 8 Years Ago

Trapped moulds, been there and got the relevant T-Shirt :-)

Steve Broad - 8 Years Ago

Hi Steve and matt, I am almost ready to start, rather than Moulding the Air Box from my 458 I have just bought one from Ebay so I can still use my car, so first question how would you go about...

Dinoman - 8 Years Ago

Make sure you use high temp resin (eg easycomposites' EL160) and gel coat (EG160). Also use a fibreglass woven matt that has no chemical binders. The split, IMO, will have to be through the long axi...

Steve Broad - 8 Years Ago

Hi Steve, Thanks again, as they say a Pic says it all that was what I was thinking but not sure so thanks, when you say HT gel and resin does this need to be oven cured as I do not have an oven yet,....

Dinoman - 8 Years Ago

Hi Steve, how can I tell if my fibreglass woven matt that has chemical binders ??, Regards DM

Dinoman - 8 Years Ago

A bit like this.

Steve Broad - 8 Years Ago

Hi Steve Thanks, I can see your mould has an opening on top, but is the other end also open like mine?? Regards DM

Dinoman - 8 Years Ago

I don't think you need to do it on your part (because I think once you blank off the two tubes in your mould you'll actually have no open ends on your moulding) but if you're struggling to understand...

Matt (Staff) - 8 Years Ago

Yes, it's my intake tube to the turbo. There is now a flange on the rectangle end to connect to the next section and a flange to bolt to the turbo.

Steve Broad - 8 Years Ago

Hi Steve, Thanks, so was the rectangle end of your Mould blanked off for Vacuum bagging and then when released from mould you cut out the rectangle end, is that correct, again Thanks for your help,.....

Dinoman - 8 Years Ago

No, both ends were open and the bag was pushed in both ends and met in the middle.

Steve Broad - 8 Years Ago

I Steve, I still cannot see how you can push one end of a bag in one end of your mould and the other end of your bag in the other end of your mold and have them meet in the middle, as far I can see.....

Dinoman - 8 Years Ago

Yeah, I thought that at first, but it actually works :-) You suck the air out of the volume between the bag and the mould, regardless of what side the bag is. The air between the bag sections pushed....

Steve Broad - 8 Years Ago

Hi Steve,I trust you, but as you say I still cannot see it, so if you are right then with my Airbox with 3 openings I do not have to blank off the openings just stuff the bag through the rectangle on...

Dinoman - 8 Years Ago

No, it was left open and the bag pushed in from both ends. I added the turbo flange (as it has an internal trumpet so not possible to make in one piece) and flange.

Steve Broad - 8 Years Ago

I Steve, I still cannot see how you can push one end of a bag in one end of your mould and the other end of your bag in the other end of your mold and have them meet in the middle, as far I can see.....

Dinoman - 8 Years Ago

No, that is how it came out of the vacuum bag. I then made the flange using wet lay carbon. Not as pretty as doing in prepreg but a little filler and sanding and it looks fine. The flange is also...

Steve Broad - 8 Years Ago

It is exactly the same method that Easy Composites used in their first pre-preg tutorial video. Watch here from about 15 minutes in and pay attention to how they make the bag meet itself inside the.....

Hanaldo - 8 Years Ago

Steve's material suggestion looks spot on. I would probably also suggest that - given the relative complexity of the mould - you use a combination of our EMP160 paste, along with conventional...

Matt (Staff) - 8 Years Ago

Hi Matt, Thanks again,as you can imagine I have quite a bit of Chopped mat Strand which I have used for my Fibreglassin so can I still use this with your HT Gel and Resin, also my MEKcat is that...

Dinoman - 8 Years Ago

Hi Matt, another observation ??? looking at your Video Making the Bonnet Mould for the 27th time I suddenly realised you did not Vacuum Bag it and especially on the first layer over the Gel Coat whic...

Dinoman - 8 Years Ago

Which kind of chopped strand matting do you have? Typically there is emulsion bound and powder bound. Epoxy lacks the solvents required to break down the emulsion binder, so we recommend the use of.....

Warren (Staff) - 8 Years Ago

Hi Warren, I do not know what type of CFM I have it is what I used for Fiberglassing ?? so how can I tell, it does not say on the label. I am just amazed that you do not recommend Vbing your Mould,....

Dinoman - 8 Years Ago

When you rub or break by hand a powder pound CSM, then usually you will get a white powder falling off as you rub or break it. Vacuum bagging is generally not necessary. For example, the putty if.....

Warren (Staff) - 8 Years Ago

I would expand on what Warren said - The important part is getting the gel coat into all the corners and crevices. As this is like a very thick paint when warm, you can't vacuum bag it as it will...

Steve Broad - 8 Years Ago

Hi Steve, Don't get me wrong, but I know the basics as I have been doing Fiberglas for over 30 years, so I have lots of Moulds and am forever repairing then, mainly because they were not made well to...

Dinoman - 8 Years Ago

I don't get you wrong :-) This is a great place to throw around ideas. Once the gel coat has cured sufficiently so that you can add the paste, no amount of vacuum bagging will improve matters....

Steve Broad - 8 Years Ago

Hi Steve, thanks again, but as I have learned over the years it is never the fault of the gel coat it is always what is on top of it, the gel is just like paint so never a problem it is only when air...

Dinoman - 8 Years Ago

Hi Steve, I am now convinced that I cannot VB my Mould so again Thanks for your help and advice an old dog like me has to be convinced ???,your oven sounds good what is it made of and how do you...

Dinoman - 8 Years Ago

No problem :-) My oven is as simple as I could make it, mostly made from stuff lying around. The frame is 2 x 2 infilled with 2" insulation board. Internally it is lined (walls, ceiling and floor).....

Steve Broad - 8 Years Ago

Hi Steve, your oven sounds great, and as you sayif it does the job then what more do you want, I might have a go if I get on with the CF, so again Thanks, Regards DM

Dinoman - 8 Years Ago

Hi Matt, Can you do me a list of what I will need to make the Mould and Air Box in carbon fibre,also the Vacuum Bagging materials, Thanks, Regards DM

Dinoman - 8 Years Ago

Hi, I am about to make my Mould, got my Barriers made and attached, first problem is when I layed down a line of glue with my hot glue gun it was gone hard before I could position my barrier, I have....

Dinoman - 7 Years Ago

Depends on how hot your gun gets the glue and the temperature of the surface you apply it to. My gun temp is adjustable up to 210 (I think) deg C making the glue almost watery! You could warm up the...

Steve Broad - 7 Years Ago

Hi Thank, can you also tell me where I can download the data Sheets from as I tried the search box but it came back with nothing, Regards DM

Dinoman - 7 Years Ago

If you are talking about EC's component prepregs, click on the datasheet button on the details page.

Steve Broad - 7 Years Ago

Hi Thanks, yes I found the Data Sheets. I have just put down my first coat of the EG160 HT Gel Coat and found it very hard to brush, I am using a 1 inch brush but it is like trying to paint with a...

Dinoman - 7 Years Ago

Hanaldo surely has way more experience in moulding than you, maybe than me, too. Mat and Warren (and myself) think that vacuum bagging isn't needed for mould making, too. So I find your behaviour...

oekmont - 8 Years Ago

You are over thinking this. You do not need vacuum for making your mould, vacuum is only going to cause you trouble. If you had a solid pattern then I'd say go for it (albeit still totally...

Hanaldo - 8 Years Ago

Hi Hanaldo, now that is a very good reason not to VB my mould ??, I had not thought the Vacuum would exert and twisting or bending force on my flanges and as you say I would be VB when everything is....

Dinoman - 8 Years Ago

Hi Dinoman, To make sure everything all stays positive I think it's clear you've got a procedure in your mind that you want to follow and that's totally fine. In composites, I think we've all learne...

Matt (Staff) - 8 Years Ago

Hi Matt, as you can see I am coming round to your way and everyone else's after Hanaldo pointed out the flaws in my thinking, so again Thanks for all your patience and a great Forum, Regards DM

Dinoman - 8 Years Ago

If it's really 15 °C, it is about 10° too could at your place.

oekmont - 7 Years Ago

Hi Thanks, sounds like I will have to take it to Bed with me ??, at least it goes off in my workshop which is just about 10 degrees C, so is there no way of thinning it out so it would spread a lot.....

Dinoman - 7 Years Ago

Cut the bristles on your brush down to about an inch long, this will make it much easier to work. Make sure to pull out any loose bristles before applying the gelcoat.

Hanaldo - 7 Years Ago

No, not really. You should definitely not work at these temperatures. Especially not with high temp resins. First: they tent to be thicker, wich makes them paste like at low temperatures. This means....

oekmont - 7 Years Ago

Hi, Thanks again for the advice, but I have started so now I will have to finish as best I can, that was why I asked if there was any way of thinning it down, so is there any way to thin it down,...

Dinoman - 7 Years Ago

=> no, not really. Except for temperature elevation.

oekmont - 7 Years Ago

Yeh these sorts of epoxies are 100% solids - there are no solvents in them, and you cant add solvents to them. Only way to lower the viscosity is with heat.

Hanaldo - 7 Years Ago

Hi All again, Thanks for the advice, I will let you know how it turns out whether it is good or bad news, Regards DM

Dinoman - 7 Years Ago

Hi All, I have just spent most of the day trying to roll out the first layers of Mat on my mould ???, what it seemed like is the Epoxy Resin wasn't dissolving the Powder Binder in the Mat so I was...

Dinoman - 7 Years Ago

Epoxy doesn't dissolve usual binders, because it doesn't contain solvents. In tooling applications epoxy is usually used in combination with woven cloth. The first layer of a mould would be something...

oekmont - 7 Years Ago

Yeh powder bound chop strand is awful stuff, terrible to work with. Woven reinforcement is the go for use with epoxy, with a bit of loose rovings first to help pack in tight corners.

Hanaldo - 7 Years Ago

Hi Hanaldo, Thanks, this is my first time trying Epoxy and I was following all the info I got on here, and when Matt said I could use CSM all he said was use the Powder Bound one ?? and I asked how I...

Dinoman - 7 Years Ago

Here is the shopping list Matt gave me; Steve's material suggestion looks spot on. I would probably also suggest that - given the relative complexity of the mould - you use a combination of our EMP16...

Dinoman - 7 Years Ago

As far as I read, he did advice you to use 280g/m^2 woven material on top of the high temp moulding paste as a coupling coat. No word of csm. Although he didn't advice against it either. When trying...

oekmont - 7 Years Ago

Below is the last line in the shopping list, so I just looked at what I got and went with the Powder bound CSM ??? Regards DM Choice of: 300gsm Powder Bound Chopped Strand Mat or/ 280gsm Woven Glass....

Dinoman - 7 Years Ago

I have just been looking on Ebay for some "280 GSM Woven Glass cloth", and all I seem to find is " Woven roving mat" is that the same thing, as I do have some Woven Roving Mat which I have used for.....

Dinoman - 7 Years Ago

https://www.easycomposites.co.uk/#!/fabric-and-reinforcement/glass-fibre-reinforcement/woven-glass-fabric

Steve Broad - 7 Years Ago

That should be just a problem of using the wrong words/combination. There are eBay sellers for almost every weave you can think of. And for shure such common types. Roving weaves are heavy cloth wit...

oekmont - 7 Years Ago

I do not understand what you are advising,what do I need Roving or Cloth, Thanks Regards DM

Dinoman - 7 Years Ago

How i do it: 166g Glass filament fabric for the first layer And then alternating between 600g roving fabric and 600g biaxial until the desired thickness is achieved. If you first use putty all like....

oekmont - 7 Years Ago

Hi and Thanks again, lots of new suggestions ?? Glass Filament Fabric?, Roving Fabric ? and Biaxial ?? what does all that mean. On my Mould so far I have put on 2 good coats of Tooling Gel, and just....

Dinoman - 7 Years Ago

Hey eddie! Any updates on airbox?

Furkan Yahsi - 7 Years Ago

Hi, no very disappointing results, the advice I got on here was now helpfull at all as I first tried the Powderbound mat which was an absolute nightmare to work with just would not sit down and was.....

Dinoman - 7 Years Ago

Well, hanaldo and me both tried convincing you not to use powder bound mat.

oekmont - 7 Years Ago

Yes Thanks, Everyone advised after I had bought it and had already tried it ??, so why would ( Mat Supposedly a Staff Expert ??) on here or anyone else suggest using Powderbound ?? I suppose if you.....

Dinoman - 7 Years Ago

Jesus, some people just can't deal with life can they? Grow up. Matt gave you advice in good faith. His advice was excellent advice, he just could not account for your skill or experience level. You...

Hanaldo - 7 Years Ago

When an EXPERT says to use a particular item like Powderbound, he should have also said it was nightmare to roll out and get it to sit down, so I am sure he never had even tried it , have you tried i...

Dinoman - 7 Years Ago

Yes I have tried it, which is why I advised you against it. However, I also know how to use it because I didn't spit the dummy when my first attempt with it didn't work, so I know exactly why Matt...

Hanaldo - 7 Years Ago

I did advice you against using powder bound mat. I did advice you to make a small test to be shure that your mat is powder bound. I did advice you to make small tests first with every new materials.....

oekmont - 7 Years Ago

Hi Oak & Han, no one advised not to use Powderbound before ?? as if they had I would have never even tried it ? as I would trust the experts ??, everyone advised afterwards, and why would Mat advise....

Dinoman - 7 Years Ago

Hello Eddie, I'm afraid I don't get much time on the forum these days so I've not really been involved in this thread since my last input towards the beginning however I did just want to set the...

Matt (Staff) - 7 Years Ago

Hi Matt, Thanks for that very full explanation ,Yes I remember you suggested PB CSM and Woven glass, but you did not mention any problems with either or just how difficult the PB CSM was to work with...

Dinoman - 7 Years Ago

Thanks Eddie, appreciate your comments. A member of staff here did mention to me that we can see your orders for all the other materials but no record of having supplied any PB CSM. I'm sure it's...

Matt (Staff) - 7 Years Ago

Hi Matt,Yes it was powderbound I got (not from you) as I already had loads of the emulsion bound mat which I use for my normal Polyester Fiberglassing, Regards eddie

Dinoman - 7 Years Ago

How should I know you are going to use (maybe not) powder bound mat? First time I heard it was when you were struggling. Some people have good results with it. It's not like you were making an obviou...

oekmont - 7 Years Ago

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