Need second opinion on three aspects of resin infusion process


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ahender
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I am close to finally infusing a 12' female canoe mold. It will be an ultralight and consist of one layer s-glass, core, one layer s-glass. I am always looking for tips on resin infusion. The three tips I list are from the below link:

https://explorecomposites.com/2019/11/19/troubleshooting-vacuum-infusion

I would like to get feedback on:

1) Degas the resin before infusing. Is this mandatory?

2) Do not turn off the vacuum pump until the part has gelled. I'm using a borrowed oil-based pump and really doubt it would would run continuously for 24 hours. I assumed that once I determine the bag does not leak, I can clamp off the resin hose and close the vacuum gauge I am using between the pump and mold. Is this a bad idea?

3) The resin bucket has to be below the part being infused. Resin pooling is the given reason. My thought is if I clamp off the resin line prior to the resin flow getting to the edge of the part, there would not be a resin pooling issue. Am I incorrect?

Thank you.

Alan
 


LibertyMKiii
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ahender - 9/3/2020 7:31:25 PM
I am close to finally infusing a 12' female canoe mold. It will be an ultralight and consist of one layer s-glass, core, one layer s-glass. I am always looking for tips on resin infusion. The three tips I list are from the below link:

https://explorecomposites.com/2019/11/19/troubleshooting-vacuum-infusion

I would like to get feedback on:

1) Degas the resin before infusing. Is this mandatory?

2) Do not turn off the vacuum pump until the part has gelled. I'm using a borrowed oil-based pump and really doubt it would would run continuously for 24 hours. I assumed that once I determine the bag does not leak, I can clamp off the resin hose and close the vacuum gauge I am using between the pump and mold. Is this a bad idea?

3) The resin bucket has to be below the part being infused. Resin pooling is the given reason. My thought is if I clamp off the resin line prior to the resin flow getting to the edge of the part, there would not be a resin pooling issue. Am I incorrect?

Thank you.

Alan
 


I am no expert, but I'll tell you what I have observed.

1. People on this forum say no about this as the vacuum will get 99% of the air bubbles out.
2. If the bag has a leak then your pump will be doing more work.  While it is digesting air it vaporizes the oil.  If there is a good deal then it wont loose oil so fast.  I have this same concern and believe if you can make it 2-3 hours you should be ok.  Ideally with all the time and money invested in the project it should be done on a day where you can check on it often and dedicate a full day to it.

3. Not sure on this one, but if you clamp off the exit then you are no longer pulling a vacuum on the part referenced in #2
I know that for mine the resin travels up the pipe vertically just fine as long as it has some slope to it and not fully vertical.

ahender
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LibertyMKiii - 9/3/2020 9:25:21 PM
ahender - 9/3/2020 7:31:25 PM
I am close to finally infusing a 12' female canoe mold. It will be an ultralight and consist of one layer s-glass, core, one layer s-glass. I am always looking for tips on resin infusion. The three tips I list are from the below link:

https://explorecomposites.com/2019/11/19/troubleshooting-vacuum-infusion

I would like to get feedback on:

1) Degas the resin before infusing. Is this mandatory?

2) Do not turn off the vacuum pump until the part has gelled. I'm using a borrowed oil-based pump and really doubt it would would run continuously for 24 hours. I assumed that once I determine the bag does not leak, I can clamp off the resin hose and close the vacuum gauge I am using between the pump and mold. Is this a bad idea?

3) The resin bucket has to be below the part being infused. Resin pooling is the given reason. My thought is if I clamp off the resin line prior to the resin flow getting to the edge of the part, there would not be a resin pooling issue. Am I incorrect?

Thank you.

Alan
 


I am no expert, but I'll tell you what I have observed.

1. People on this forum say no about this as the vacuum will get 99% of the air bubbles out.
2. If the bag has a leak then your pump will be doing more work.  While it is digesting air it vaporizes the oil.  If there is a good deal then it wont loose oil so fast.  I have this same concern and believe if you can make it 2-3 hours you should be ok.  Ideally with all the time and money invested in the project it should be done on a day where you can check on it often and dedicate a full day to it.

3. Not sure on this one, but if you clamp off the exit then you are no longer pulling a vacuum on the part referenced in #2
I know that for mine the resin travels up the pipe vertically just fine as long as it has some slope to it and not fully vertical.

Thank you very much. Having my resin bucket below the part is not a problem. Just thought having it on the part would save some resin. Considering how much resin is consumed by the flow media, I guess I should not worry about extra resin in a longer feed line.

I do plan to pay close attention to this project.

Alan

Warren (Staff)
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If your bag is leak tight (from doing a longer leak test), then you don't need to leave the pump running once the infusion is complete. 

There are mixed results with having the resin bucket higher or lower than the part, IME it makes little difference on decent sized parts. Certainly on a large hull like you are doing, I doubt it will make any real difference compared to having the resin pot at the same level as the part.

Warren Penalver
Easy Composites / Carbon Mods - Technical Support Assistant
ahender
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Warren (Staff) - 9/4/2020 11:57:41 AM
If your bag is leak tight (from doing a longer leak test), then you don't need to leave the pump running once the infusion is complete. 

There are mixed results with having the resin bucket higher or lower than the part, IME it makes little difference on decent sized parts. Certainly on a large hull like you are doing, I doubt it will make any real difference compared to having the resin pot at the same level as the part.

Thank you Warren. Just one comment. In the below Easy Composites step-by-step infusion guide, it is recommended that the resin line be clamped when 2/3 of the part is wet (page 10 of the guide). This is the first time I have read stopping the feed this short of the edge. I assume this is still recommended. Not sure of the document's age. By the way, the guide is by far the best I have found on the internet. 

Document:
https://3937524.app.netsuite.com/core/media/media.nl?id=59028&c=3937524&h=ed6c113ff018e812d5f3&_xt=.pdf

Alan

Chris Rogers
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Hi Alan,

I'm the guy who wrote the article you reference - and it's not really a how-to (working on that) but a what to consider if you're having problems! 

1 - you don't need to degass unless it solves your problem - in some cases it helps.  For a thick mold (guessing 5-8mm of e-glass solid laminate?) you will have a lof flow-front speed and the resin will effectively degass itself.

2 - This one I am pretty confident on.  Yes people have good results with small parts and perfect bags - sometimes - but a large mold is not the place to experiment.  The only case that this is really fine is with a double-bagged infusion where the inner bag is just for the infusion and the outer bag provides compaction - this is int he crazy-fussy end of things and nobody here probably needs to consider this method.

I have worked with many very experienced infusion experts and none of them ever suggest that turning off the vacuum on a large part is a good idea. The goals should be: very high vacuum for several hours on the dry stack to degass and de-water the stack.  Do the job (mold, resin, everything) at an elevated temperature - uncomfortably warm is best. Infuse at a controlled speed - don't worry about it taking a while if you have the pot life for it.  Don't just let it rip!  Make sure you have a good resin break and / or use MTI hose or Dahlpac to keep resin from clogging your vac manifold.  Decrease the vacuum to 75% or so to keep any moisture in the resin from turning to gas.  If you have an excellent mold with a good drop test - a really good one - then you should be ok with this.  A leaky mold - even a little leak - will ruin you.  Leaving the vacuum on prevents small leaks from being catastrophic - and keeps the resin from pooling under then bag if there is no hydraulic "head" on the bag cavity.  You've got a couple grand in this mold - might as well leave the vacuum on - it won't hurt if you have decent resin break solution and it can only help!  Also, if you're going to post cure in the mold - leave the vacuum on for that whole process.

3 - The height of the bucket thing is a minor consideration but it can cause real problems if you get it wrong.  The best prevention is a careful eye on the process and an understanding of the effect of gravity on the resin pressure.  If you camp off the resin before the part is 100% full this shouldn't be a big issue.

Watch out for the 2/3 of part rule you mentioned in your last post - its all about the volume of resin needed and if that much resin gets into the part.




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