How do I ensure aluminium honeycomb is bonded to fabric for composite sandwich ?


How do I ensure aluminium honeycomb is bonded to fabric for composite sandwich ?
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downforce
downforce
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Hi

If I want to create a decent thickness solid composite sandwich panel to use as a caravan side panel (sort of) and I need to construct the components like the sides, top, floor, front and back I am considering using aluminium or solid core with a combination of CF/Glass and Kevlar for strength and impact combination - possibly with ply on the inside to bolt things to internally.

I have a couple of specific questions;

1) I cant find anywhere that explains how to create an Aluminium core composite and how to bond the core to the fabric and if it can be infusion formed.

2) If I am going to construct a big 3D construction, how do I choose the right sandwich components for a good combination of rigidity and flexibility and ease of production - I am thinking about silver glass (or 2x2 CF) on the outside with 2x kevlar layers around aluminium or foam core ? 

3) If I find the right combination of sandwich materials and create a side panel and a roof panel how do I join the two - I understand the different techniques but just want to choose the right combination of epoxy, bolts, extrusion etc. - I don't want to just bond the two together and find the roof peels off on the motorway! What particularly concerns me 

4) It occurred to me that I could build a box-ally frame and then I would have a solid base, for example to bolt a spare wheel to. Then I thought should I try and build a frame into the composite shell or just both the sell to the frame or is having a frame overkill.

Joe
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Hi, Downforce.

I know this doesn't answer all of your questions, but here's a link to remove some of your guesswork.

Hope it helps.

 



 


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downforce
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Hi Joe

Yes that helps - Thanks for finding that link

BUT I still dont get how to do it - I mean do I create a skin then spread the epoxy all over it - if so how thick - on both surfaces ? (like I was sticking ceramic tiles on a wall) then do I vac-bag it to get a good  bond or do I need to heat the work-piece up.

So assuming I figure out how to get the best results and do that thing - how do I know what I want to end up with ?
I assume the smaller the aluminium honeycomb cell diameter the stronger the composite - but how strong do I need for the cabin of a caravan?

DF
Matt (Staff)
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Hi DF,

1) I cant find anywhere that explains how to create an Aluminium core composite and how to bond the core to the fabric and if it can be infusion formed.

BUT I still dont get how to do it - I mean do I create a skin then spread the epoxy all over it - if so how thick - on both surfaces ? (like I was sticking ceramic tiles on a wall) then do I vac-bag it to get a good  bond or do I need to heat the work-piece up.



You need to make the contituent sheets first (so if you want skins of fibreglass on the panel you would need to make the fibreglass first) ideally with a peel-ply finish on the inside. You then apply honeycomb bonding adhesive to the peel-ply side of the first panel, lower the honeycomb onto it, do the same with the other face and then lower that face onto the other side of the honeycomb before weighting them down (or pulling a light vacuum) whilst the adhesive cures. Aim to apply the adhesive about 0.3mm thick. the adhesive cures at room temperature, no need to heat it up.

2) If I am going to construct a big 3D construction, how do I choose the right sandwich components for a good combination of rigidity and flexibility and ease of production - I am thinking about silver glass (or 2x2 CF) on the outside with 2x kevlar layers around aluminium or foam core ?


Choosing the right materials depends so much on your design and how it all comes together that it's impossible for anyone to tell you, in a generic sense, what would be right. Your laminate of 2 layers of fabric will give you about 0.5mm of thickness on the inside and outside. That is a very very thin laminate; it's possible that it's right but unlikely. I think my suggestion would be to make up some sample panels using the skins that you think will be right and bonding them to some honeycomb in the way that you will do on the full scale part. You can then do some stress and destruction testing on those panels so that you've got a really good idea of what construction will be right for your full scale part.

3) If I find the right combination of sandwich materials and create a side panel and a roof panel how do I join the two - I understand the different techniques but just want to choose the right combination of epoxy, bolts, extrusion etc. - I don't want to just bond the two together and find the roof peels off on the motorway! What particularly concerns me


That's a really complicated subject and again is all down to your design. Sandwich panels (particularly those using honeycomb) are vulnerable at the edges and so generally you would want to have some solid sections forming a frame around the edge of your panels (which you laminate in at the time you construct the panel. This will give you a lot more options when it comes to fixing them together.

4) It occurred to me that I could build a box-ally frame and then I would have a solid base, for example to bolt a spare wheel to. Then I thought should I try and build a frame into the composite shell or just both the sell to the frame or is having a frame overkill.


This is a really wide subject and we can't design your vehicle for you. What I can say is that most modern composite vehicle bodies (generally refrigerated vehicles) use a frameless design these days. The panels are joggled and fixed together to leverage the stiffness of the panels rather than to 'hang off' a heavy and not particularly sound steel frame. A process invented by Truck Panels Ltd in the 80's and now used the world over.

I hope this helps,

--Matt

Matt Statham
Easy Composites / Carbon Mods - Technical Sales
downforce
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Hi Matt

Thanks a gazillion for the information it is all helping me to build a big picture up. I have also been talking to some friends in F1 who asked their people about this (with mixed results).

One of the biggest thing that concerns me is trying to make a 5m x 2m panel up and not making a complete arse of it and wasting hundreds of quids worth of material, can you make something that size (or slightly bigger) with one small pump or do you need multiple ingress / egress points for resin infusion?

I guess I have to do the stress testing as you suggested and I see that you have some trial sample fabric kits but they are a bit small - do you have any random offcuts (or is that where the sample kits come from)?

I just saw your post on the new carbon/Twaron material - when do you think that will be available in small quantity for testing?

Cheers 

DF
Matt (Staff)
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HI DF,

Sorry for the delay in getting back to you, I didn't see this thread bump.

Carbon/Twaron is in stock now, I'll get it added to the website so you can purchase online but in the meantime if you want some and it's not online just give us a call. Price will be the same as 188g carbon/kevlar.

I guess I have to do the stress testing as you suggested and I see that you have some trial sample fabric kits but they are a bit small - do you have any random offcuts (or is that where the sample kits come from)?


It's not where the samples come from but generally we don't have a lot of offcuts. If you place an order in the future and would like to ask at the time whether we can include any available offcuts of reinforcement then I'm sure we'll try to accommodate.

Best regards, Matt

Matt Statham
Easy Composites / Carbon Mods - Technical Sales
TheEngineer
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Hi Matt, other than the rec 2 part adhesives, can we jus simple spread epoxy mix probably with more hardener using a brush and lower the honeycomb?  Is the epoxy a suitable candidate to bond Aluminum?
Tones67
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downforce (08/06/2012)


I have also been talking to some friends in F1...

DF


I wish I had those friends Wink
sanket landge
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Matt (Staff) - 6/17/2012 10:01:06 AM
HI DF,

Sorry for the delay in getting back to you, I didn't see this thread bump.

Carbon/Twaron is in stock now, I'll get it added to the website so you can purchase online but in the meantime if you want some and it's not online just give us a call. Price will be the same as 188g carbon/kevlar.

I guess I have to do the stress testing as you suggested and I see that you have some trial sample fabric kits but they are a bit small - do you have any random offcuts (or is that where the sample kits come from)?


It's not where the samples come from but generally we don't have a lot of offcuts. If you place an order in the future and would like to ask at the time whether we can include any available offcuts of reinforcement then I'm sure we'll try to accommodate.

Best regards, Matt



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