Carbon Fiber Starter Kit: what did I do wrong?


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benji
benji
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Hi,
I tried to create an heavy duty hinge with the carbon starter kit but I came across the same mistake every time apparently.
I "paint" a glass surface with the PVA release agent and let it dry for 20 minutes then I applied a layer of epoxy resin mixed with the epoxy hardener ( ratio 2/3 epoxy and 1/3 hardener) and let it dry for 2 hours.
I weight the number of CF sheet I will use and the following relationship to decide which amount of resin I should:
Epoxy Hardener weight = CF weight
Epoxy Resin weight = 2 * CF weight   

I lay each layer of carbon one after another "paint" the resin on it and remove the excess resin from time. Leave it alone for the night.

First: no way I can separate the CF from the glass surface. Should I leave the resin solidify for precisely 8 hours or "at least" 8 hours that may explain why the two are "glued" permanently together.
 
Second: once I had a strange reaction in the pot where I mixed the epoxy & the hardener. It started to get really hot with fumes and it solidified almost instantly. What did happen? how can avoid that?

I'm aware that for an hinge resin infusion is more likely the best course of action but my lack of success with this technique  and the entry cost prevent me to use it.

Thanks in advance.
Benji
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panda
panda
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Hi Benji,

First thing that jumps out is if you are using a 1:3 ratio of hardener to resin, then 

*Epoxy Hardener weight = CF weight 
Epoxy Resin weight = 2 * CF weight*

Is a 1:2 ratio.

If you have 100g of epoxy, you need 33.3g of hardener in it to get the correct ratio.

If you want to use your theory:
Epoxy Hardener weight = CF weight 
Epoxy Resin weight = 3 * CF weight

to get the correct ratios.
I would be surprised if the resin even hardened with a 1:2 ratio if it should be 1:3.

For the second point, the cup gets very hot as it is an exothermic reaction (gives off heat).  As it heats up, it speeds the reaction up and it all "kicks" in a very short space of time.  To avoid this, try using a slow catalyst, it will give a longer pot life and give you a bit more working time.  The down side it you will have a longer demould time.  The alternative is to wok faster and get it all on the laminate before the point that it kicks.
Hanaldo
Hanaldo
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With regards to the sticking, glass is actually a bit of a difficult tool surface because your traditional mould release agents like release wax and/or PVA can be a bit inconsistent. Due to the low very surface porosity of glass, wax and PVA don't tend to stick to the surface very well, so if you are using wax then it tends to be completely removed from the surface when you buff it off. And PVA will also tend to bead up and streak rather than forming a consistent layer, so in your case what has likely happened is there were lots of gaps in your coat of PVA that allowed the resin to contact and bond with the glass. 

The best solution is to use a chemical release agent such as Easylease or Frekote or the likes. 
Warren (Staff)
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Hi Benji,

I have looked through your order history and you have had a laminating kit from us which uses our EL2 laminating epoxy resin. This has a mixing ratio of 100:30 by weight. Ie you need 100 parts of resin to 30 parts of hardener.  It is critical that you get the mixing ratio as accurate as possible other wise you will have curing problems.  a part cured resin or undercured resin will grip the mould quite well making it hard to remove which might partly explain your demould problems.

However, Hanaldo is spot on with the release agents.  Glass can be tricky so unless you were 100% sure you had a good even layer of PVA then I suspect the part has stuck as a result of the PVA layer not being even.  Epoxy sticks to glass VERY VERY well which is unfortunate in this case. 

Warren Penalver
Easy Composites / Carbon Mods - Technical Support Assistant
jdp530
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I found a suggestion elsewhere that I have used recently to keep resin from curing to quickly, using ice water under your resin container to keep glue cooled, sort of like an ice bath. Last week I molded my first vacuum bagging project and during one trip to hardware store I found a small painter's mug or miniature bucket that has disposable liners. It probably holds about a liter of fluid. 

So I put some ice/water in bottom of mug and then installed the liner that I used to mix resin and hardener. I did not have any problems with epoxy curing too quickly. But, be careful you dont pour glue from mug without first removing the liner so you dont spill water onto project. 

Another way you can keep resin cool is by using a couple of painter's roller pans, one on top of the other with cold water in the bottom pan. 
Edited 8 Years Ago by jdp530
benji
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Hi,
Thanks for the reply. I had given a though about the cold bath the issue is you have to use plastic cup and not the one provide by easy composite which are in "paper".
Meanwhile I'm quite surprise about the relation I though I was producing much more resin than I needed this make even more.
Quick question: by curiosity if glass is a bad support what you would recommend?
I haven't use my mold kit as I have found a quicker way to do things so I guess I will try this to create something close to my need.  
Thanks for the help
ChrisR
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Why on earth would you want to cool the pot down in a pot of ice water?? All that's doing is increasing the viscosity, changing the chemical reaction, making it harder to work into the fabric and potentially introducing water into the laminate - it's just a recipe for disaster imo.

with such a short pot life (12-17mins @ 25deg according to the TDS) just normal room temperature (17degC) will slow the reaction a bit and increase the pot life.

As already mentioned, the heat/fumes and speedy gel are from an uncontrolled exothermic reaction, if you fill the pot with resin then yes that will happen very quickly. If you increase the surface area of the resin in relation to the volume i.e. use a bigger pot or mix less resin, this will reduce the likelihood of this happening.

With short life resins (on the few times I have HAD to use them) the clock starts as soon as you pour the hardener in, not once you've finished mixing, so if you spend 3mins mixing on a 10 min potlife, you've realistically only got around 6-7 mins left of working time.

Best tip I was given on this was to have a bucket of water near your workstation so if the pot does start getting too hot/catch fire you can just submerge it and the water will absorb the heat making the area safe from fire and fumes.

I always work with a slower hardener to give the longer pot life then heat the laminate up to cure it quicker and get better properties from the final laminate.

Also, glass & wax, you need A LOT of coats to make it work, I successfully completed about 50 pulls of a sheet of glass before I messed up with the waxing and broke the glass so it can be done, you just need to treat it as a fresh mould every time and be very careful handling. The thicker the glass the better. (and don't use toughened glass!!)
GO

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