GC50 delaminated


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fjm9898
fjm9898
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I am not a happy camper today. I spent a bunch of money to have GC50 sent to the US because its the only thing that will work according to Easy Composites.

I followed every direction perfectly and soon as i cut the part, it start to chip up immediately.

I got the mixing portions right, i bought a spray gun. Laid it on a bit thinker, maybe 0.5mil or 0.6 mill, but should not of been a problem since some people brush it on heavier.
i let it stand for about 10 hours, well after the 2-3 cure time and well within the 24hour max out period. i did resin in fusion. i let the resin and the gc50 cure for 3 days. first cut, darn near instantly started to chip up and de-laminate. i used a cutoff wheel and actually moved downt eh part slow and moved fast to see if it was heat or speed, still happened no matter what.

i am at a loss guys. this product was supposed to be aon a show car tomorrow and i completely blew it because of this issue. i really dont understand.

here are a few pictures.
https://scontent.fsnc1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/13627054_10101758362734040_2155620982675042648_n.jpg?oh=ee4c3a0ec1c0f9e76f3e73dccbae2850&oe=57F1354E
https://scontent.fsnc1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/13606973_10101758362758990_8829558832918393004_n.jpg?oh=645c71b97dcbe46f8445be615baccc41&oe=582BB6F1
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Hanaldo
Hanaldo
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MEKP varies MASSIVELY. I've actually got 5 different brands in stock because each gives me different advantages, eg. longer or shorter pot lives, higher final cures, lower porosity, etc. 

As for mechanical bond vs chemical bond, youre talking about bonds at a molecular level. Yes, abrading a surface to give a key is referred to as mechanical bonding too, but mechanical bonding can also take place in the molecules of 2 substrates. A chemical bond means that a reaction takes place where 2 or molecules link together to become one molecule. In mechanical bonding, 2 or more molecules stay as separate molecules from a chemistry perspective, but become 'tangled' together and effectively become one. Think of it like a chain structure. The actual metal links are the molecules, and a 'covalent' chemical bond would be what makes up each individual link. A mechanical bond is the intersection between two of the links. 

As far as the bond between the epoxy and the GC50 goes, I'm not overly familiar with the exact chemistry of the GC50, but I would say that the 'open time' is the length of time the the molecules remain unlinked, and so the epoxy molecules can form a mechanical bond. After that time has passed, (and likely it is due to the evaporation of the styrene molecules) the epoxy molecules can't become entangled with the polyester molecules any more. 
Matt (Staff)
Matt (Staff)
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FJM9898,

Warren has been discussing this issue with me so I thought I would respond directly to your post. From the information you've provided it is proving quite difficult to understand what might have happened. No product is invincible to all circumstances but generally GC50 is a robust product that's used widely and performs very well. Possible variables in this case are:

  1. The Processing
    You've described this in detail and all looks well but sometimes there remain unidentified issues; example - you're prepping your car for a show and you've been using 'Back to Black' silicone spray in the workshop. An issue like this can often be the cause but is difficult to diagnose because it may not seem to be materially relevant.

  2. The Other Materials Being Used
    - All MEKPs are not equal but the main effect they will have will be to vary the cure speed of the GC50. You've already explained that the GC50 was fully cured (sufficient to abrade without clogging)
    - The Resin Research Epoxy - Not a product we have or use in the UK so we don't have direct experience. Certainly I've used epoxies in the past which have very different bond characteristics to other epoxies. This is not mean it's not a good epoxy but there could be an issue with the way it bonds to certain materials (in this case, polyester). Also, although you mention you've been using this resin for one year, unless you've been using it to bond to GC50 then we can't really infer much from that. 

  3. The GC50 Itself
    In our experience the answer is very rarely the product itself although it's sensible to rule nothing out. We have an extraordinary level of detail available in relation to your order, for example, without asking I can tell you what the batch number of your resin is (and you can see this on your delivery note) and from my side I can see exactly when it was made, who decanted and packed it and which other customers had product from exact same batch. We've not had any other reports (to date) and around 160kgs of product from that batch are already with customers. For this reason, I think we should focus on areas '1' and '2' until we have exhausted all possibilities there.
Turning our consideration to the resin, it's probably helpful to point out that if you took any cured polyester substrate and keyed the surface with an abrasive then a typical epoxy resin would bond well to it. What you're describing in the above case is that your epoxy is not bonding to a cured and keyed polyester substrate which, whether it was GC50 or any other polyester substrate, is unusual.

You also mention that you've done two different infusions and experienced the same delamination issue. Were both of these parts made at the same time or were they made on different occasions or at different times?

I hope you can see that my technical staff and I are here to help you solve the problem and we will always ensure you're 100% happy with the outcome. Please get back to me on the above points and we'll continue to assist.

Kind regards, Matt

Matt Statham
Easy Composites / Carbon Mods - Technical Sales
Edited 9 Years Ago by Matt (Staff)
fjm9898
fjm9898
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Matt,

At this point i have only done one part with GC50

My shop is part of the house and not the garage so there were no other contaminates or anything else done in the house to cause and issue. I sprayed the GC50, went to bed, woke up, sanded it and then went about the infusion setup process. 

Warren did bring up moister and it has been rainy, yet warm here. The part of the states i live is not known to be very humid in the summer, but it had been the past few weeks. I am looking into purchasing dehumidifier to help rule this out as a possible cause. 

I am also going to try a hand layup with a different epoxy i use for hand lays along side my resin research 2050 and make two small 15"x 15" test panels. It is thicker so not ideal for infusion, but has been my go to since i started making carbon parts a few years ago. I will give that resin a try and see if it does a better job bonding to the GC50. I have had a cheap epoxy off of ebay not mechanically bond to anything before, so i know that the type of epoxy can be an issue. So trying my go to epoxy that i know bonds to everything next to my infusion epoxy will prove real quick if its an epoxy issue. I have used this epoxy as a depth coat on a million things and never had it not bond to what ever i laid it over. So if that test panel does not bond, i am going to be very confused. Lucky for me, if the epoxy proves to be the issue i can get away with hand lays for a while due to using a gel coat and not having to worry about pin holes until i find a compatible infusion epoxy here in the states. 

Thanks for the help everyone. Great to get feedback from you guys. 

I am very busy this week so i wont get that test panel done for a few days (also wouldn't hurt to wait for my dehumidifier to show up), but once i do i will check back in and let you guys know my findings. 

Regards,
Frank M
Edited 9 Years Ago by fjm9898
Matt (Staff)
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Yes, thanks Frank, that sounds like a great way to go; it's all about finding what we can rule out and then seeing what's left at the end. Warren and I will monitor this thread and respond once you've had a chance to do some tests with a different epoxy.

Kind regards, Matt

Matt Statham
Easy Composites / Carbon Mods - Technical Sales
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fjm9898 - 9 Years Ago
Hanaldo - 9 Years Ago
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fjm9898 - 9 Years Ago
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